Harnesses for agitation? - Page 5

Steve1 "To get to the crux of this post is to say that i think you are trying to say in your own way that I and they need to learn over here
Of course we can all learn and anyone says different is stupid but when one is the Belgian team Captain WUSV and helps prepare the Belgian team and the Helper in question works with them i think they know a little bit about the sport
As for me handling her one time is irrelevant and is of no consequence, She will not even know the Belgian team Captain has hold of the line she will not be looking at him or anything else only one thing that fellow in front of her and i can take the pic's as i want
and why do i take the Pic's my camera lens is not automatic if you do not adjust the lens by hand and know how to do it then you will get long range photos and that is no good having a Pic with the dog and handler at long range
Now do not take this post as being sarcastic for it is not just telling you the facts for i think you were being as we say over here a little patronizing and just to put it straight"

I have no doubt that they know what they are doing over there and I never meant that they don't know what they are doing over there nor was I implying that you didn't know what you were doing. That is one thing that is bad about emails or txts is that it is easily taken the wrong way. I just think that it isn't right of someone that is teaching another to belittle them in front of others. If the helper didn't like the harness he should have just said " I don't think it would be in your dogs best interest to use the harness.The collar will bring up her drive more" or what ever his reason is for not useing one is.  As for the pictures...thought it would just be nice to see you working your dog and all of us to see a pic with you handling her. Though if it isn't automatic I wouldn't want to pass off my camera either to someone that doesn't know how to use it. Sorry you took it the wrong way. It's hard to know what a person is meaning when you don't know them.
Happy Training!
~L~

Lavik
With one Guy who has won the WUSV three times plus a  3rd place 7th place etc etc they sure know what they are doing and the whole Belgium team in less than the first 50 last year says that they do
What you would not take from the Guy is up to you
But let me put it in the proper context lets say for instance you had been that Guy
Then i would have told you to shut it and that would have been that, and if you did not like the way i said  it then you could try and do what you could about it that way i am easy, i do not bother which way a person takes it if they are normally funny with me
But i have known the Guy for years that is the difference and i did not take it the wrong way for i know him well enough to think nothing nasty was meant , For you seem to be harping on the fact of his words then saying you do not understand why i let him get away with it as if i am an easy touch,
That my friend is far from the truth for if i get into trouble i make sure the other one if possible does not stand up again at least for some time there are no qualms or do i have any remorse for what i do in that situation and that is the truth i never have throughout my life time, once i start i go all out to stop the other one once and for all the consequence after i do not bother about that does not concern me in the slightest way, Saying all that i am no macho man far from it but i am also no fool in the art of self defense i am well able to look after myself even at my age now, just as well i can for a couple of years ago when i was visiting in the UK i was attacked in broad daylight by two thugs a third my age, and i bettered those Lads
But on this occasion it never entered my head at all so there is little point of it being bought up again
Seems you are a little Fragile on words spoken to you, so i do wonder how you get on where you are now with the rest of the Guys you work with for if someone you know well says something out of place then you will probably rare off at him. That is not normally needed but if a stranger does the same thing then that is a different kettle of fish then Fireworks could fly
However as it is i have a Medium Harness used once and a Large Harness never used and brand new, i will not be using them again thats for sure
So Peace and good training to you
Steve1

There really is no right or wrong here, it's simply a matter of personal preference.   Some people prefer harnesses and some people prefer agitation collars.  It depends on the helper, the dog and the handler.   This is not defined by the country either, I happen to know trainers in Germany and Belgium that use harnesses and trainers in the USA that use agitation collars. 

Steve you would be wrong to  base your opinions of training methods in the USA upon what you read on message boards.  In fact most methods that are tried and true are used universally (maybe with variations) by most  competitors who consistently place high in International competitions and this includes those from the USA.  I have some friends I train with that  travel to Belgium and other parts of Europe to train, one of the gals is originally from Hungary.  An extremely talented helper by the name of Vincent (originally from The Netherlands) was here not long ago and is coming back at the end of this month.  A number of us were lucky enough to train with him and will do so again.  Good methods are good methods, not necessarily germane to any one country. 

We use both.....collars & harnesses....depending on the dog.
I prefer the Frabo light weight harnesses....
JMO

I would say that Ivan Balabanov is a successul world competitor for a very long time now.  His method of training involves harnesses. 

So, if you have a very good sucessful trainer, you go the way they are used to training.

Michele

Sue
 No lecture needed, I am going only on the amount of people on this thread who use an Harness and that is several,
As i said i have worked in three clubs over here no one uses an Harness i have watched training in about four other clubs i have never seen an Harness used yet, that is not to say they do not as there are about 63 affiliated Clubs in Belgium and guess a few not so
I will not be using one again with Izzy and as i said i did not use one with the other two dogs as well, everyone to there own and what suits there needs, good job we are not all alike
By the way what area did you watch or train in Belgium that would be interesting was it long ago, and it is good to see methods of other countries working,
 I wish i could see it over there in the USA before i pop off  that would be something special but i doubt i ever will
I did meet and talk to a couple of the Guys from the USA Competitors in Krefeld, Very nice Fellows and we had a nice chat and a laugh,
In fact the Belgian team Captain was working in the USA doing a Trial and Seminar  a week or so before last Christmas and one of the USA competitors asked him if he knew me , He said yes i train in the same clubs as he does, So once seen i am never forgotten it seems
Is that good or bad
Steve1

Sueincc  thanks for understanding that it is personaly preference as I am sure there are others that understand that too. If there are any helpers on here I am sure that they might have some thoughts about preference to working a dog on a collar or on a harness. Sorry Steve with what you said you seem to be a bit defenceive again maybe not truely understanding what I was saying. As for me being "Fragile" I am far from it.I have rolled with the best of them and have worked with helpers that have talked  trash  and  I knew them and knew that is how they are with everyone.I would almost wonder if they were ok if they were actually nice and didn't say something bad. With all the other stuff you were talking about  "Saying all that i am no macho man far from it but i am also no fool in the art of self defense i am well able to look after myself even at my age now, just as well i can for a couple of years ago when i was visiting in the UK i was attacked in broad daylight by two thugs a third my age, and i bettered those Lads" That really has nothing to do with anything.Don't know what you are trying to prove or why you said that buy ok.
Best to you and your pup,
~L~

No lecture Steve, merely trying to point out that we are not so different, if you spent any time training with our international competitors you would know this.

Well
I have come to the conclusion reading these posts that you Guys over there think you are the greatest Dog handlers in the world , So long as you think so that is okay
Lavik
It is your keeping on about the what the Helper said is why that was bought up for i do know that your reference to it more than once is trying to make me look a little soft or maybe someone without any Bottle, that is why i put it in But you seem to be a little on the slow side to grasp it, Plus the fact you are a patronizing sort of person who thinks they know it all You have worked with this or that, As i said this helper is one of the best around here For if he is no good then i wonder why he has worked several times in the USA , Malaysia etc then i do wonder why they need any Belgians to work in the USA when they have People like you there
Plus, who has not worked with the best in there countries you are not the only one
Sue,
I do not know where you are coming from except that you seem set of wanting to argue but Lady not with me you will not read my post again you will see that i talked with two of the USA WUSV team, OR do you not consider them to be of any consequence Overall,  But when asked a simple question you do not answer it
Where did you train in Belgium and with whom that is a simple question with no more than an interest from me
Steve1

STEVE:

1.  I never said I trained in Belgium.

2.  I am certainly not trying to argue with you Steve, quite the opposite.  I am simply saying that there is no right or wrong regarding the use of a harness or agitation collar, it's a matter of personal preference.   I have no clue what got into your bonnet and I have  never argued with you.  We must be having some sort of a    miscommunication here because I am not disagreeing with you, I am saying we are very much alike.  I believe you said you spoke with a couple of international competitors from the USA -  I thought you said you had good conversation with them or did I misunderstand you?  I believe if you ever happen to train with people from the USA who are lucky enough to get to go to Europe to train you will find the methods are more similar than they are different - that's all I was saying. 

3.  I have NEVER  been anything but completely respectful of other countries accomplishments in schutzhund including Belgium and I have NEVER even intimated  the USA was superior to anyone.  As a matter of fact please show me when was the last time I referred to the various times USA has done well in international competition as some sort of proof of USA superiority to any other country regards the realms of  training or breeding?  That's not my belief or my style, Steve.