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by LAVK-9 on 13 February 2010 - 17:02
Gustav, very true, and very depressing. Another problem is anyone who would dare think of breeding an untitled dog (and good dogs are often untitled for very good reasons) is viewed as a BYB and gets slammed w/out a second thought as to whether they may have very good reasons for what they're doing (or not doing.) Titled vs. untitled is a lot deeper than simply one breeder "cares" and one "doesn't care." There are some (many) high level sport dogs that you couldn't pay me to take a pup from, because they're single purpose and unbalanced. I want to live with a dog, not just kneel at a podium next to them.
I have been there.I got slammed before cause of a breeding I did with my boy and a female I had cause they weren't titled.Sorry but my life wasn't consistant enough to be able to go and do the SchH.Either I had the $$ and no time or I didn't have the $$.I know the pedigrees of my dogs.I know the parents of the female and they are great dogs.Even temperament and nice balance.I was the litter and picked the one that I saw as most stable and confident(all turned out very nice.) So yes i have bred dogs that weren't titled.My male was OFAd and the female I had 5 different vets tell me they should go good to excellent.(I worked at a vet clinic) It was a few weeks shy of sending them out to OFA though before she turned 2. All the pups from that litter were confident and had goos sound temperament except there was one I didn't like.He seemed a bit too sencitive.That was 1 out of 7 though. It isn't that my dog couldn't do SchH....as I did start it...but I wasn't able to keep up with it.Further more I don't need some judge that sees my dog for a few moments of the day to tell me what he thinks my dog is like. It's like meeting a person.You might see them for a short meeting and think that that are great and you get to know them and they aren't so great or vise versa. I know my dogs faults....I think more so it was the training I did for SchH that made him more of a prey monster then the defencevness that he had as a pup.I really wish I could have worked more on what he was naturaly then to change and turn him into something else.
~L~
I have been there.I got slammed before cause of a breeding I did with my boy and a female I had cause they weren't titled.Sorry but my life wasn't consistant enough to be able to go and do the SchH.Either I had the $$ and no time or I didn't have the $$.I know the pedigrees of my dogs.I know the parents of the female and they are great dogs.Even temperament and nice balance.I was the litter and picked the one that I saw as most stable and confident(all turned out very nice.) So yes i have bred dogs that weren't titled.My male was OFAd and the female I had 5 different vets tell me they should go good to excellent.(I worked at a vet clinic) It was a few weeks shy of sending them out to OFA though before she turned 2. All the pups from that litter were confident and had goos sound temperament except there was one I didn't like.He seemed a bit too sencitive.That was 1 out of 7 though. It isn't that my dog couldn't do SchH....as I did start it...but I wasn't able to keep up with it.Further more I don't need some judge that sees my dog for a few moments of the day to tell me what he thinks my dog is like. It's like meeting a person.You might see them for a short meeting and think that that are great and you get to know them and they aren't so great or vise versa. I know my dogs faults....I think more so it was the training I did for SchH that made him more of a prey monster then the defencevness that he had as a pup.I really wish I could have worked more on what he was naturaly then to change and turn him into something else.
~L~
by LAVK-9 on 13 February 2010 - 17:02
Sorry posted twice...that keeps happening for some reason.
by steve1 on 13 February 2010 - 17:02
So according to some of you the Father of my Pup is Crap for it is ScH111, KKL1 (V) A Normal Hips and Elbows only 3 years old and 7th WUSV 2009 but it meand nothing in the quality of the dog and according to Praeger and others is not worth a Tap or the paper it is wrote on
On the other hand this thread could well be some kindof a sales ploy, But of course the hands will be thrown up in horror at the thought and vehemently denied
Steve1
On the other hand this thread could well be some kindof a sales ploy, But of course the hands will be thrown up in horror at the thought and vehemently denied
Steve1
by VomMarischal on 13 February 2010 - 18:02
No Steve. I just mean that I've seen too many dogs who don't deserve titles with titles, not that all dogs with titles don't deserve them. Don't know how you added it up to mean THAT.
by Gustav on 13 February 2010 - 20:02
Steve, You truly don't understand English or fail to read everything in a post, to come to the conclusions that you come to. NOBODY equated a titled dog with V conformation with crap but YOU!! All five of the dogs that I own are workinglines, the sires are V rated, and both parents titled. What you have is not so unusual whatsoever!! Neither does everybody have to march to the tune of Izzy and Como to be good! And because we are acknowledging that there are untitled dogs that are excellent also, DOES NOT MEAN THAT ALL TITLED DOGS ARE CRAP.!! Talk about get something twisted....you take the cake!! You have a nice dog...nobody said you didn't and you can't create that somebody is talking about you and you dog. But they didn't break the mold with you, or your training in Belgium. Sorry, my friend...there are good dogs and good dog trainers in many countries and I guess you just have a hard time with that!!
by LAVK-9 on 13 February 2010 - 21:02
Sometime I think that this is that game of "operator" At school all the kids in a class would sit in a circle and one would tell the one sitting next to them something in a wisper and they would go around telling what they thought the other said.Then when it came to the begining again the word would end up so far from the word that started the game.This is how these threads are like with people NOT reading....or not grasping the consept of what is being said. I have now flashed back to my dreaded school days!!! lol
~L~
~L~
by steve1 on 13 February 2010 - 23:02
Lets just say Gustave that some of you so called experts would be laughed out of this side of Europe if you came and talked as much Crap as you do on here and that is fact to some of the Guys over here, and probably that is why they do not partake of the forum in any numbers
and the post was directed to Praeger who started the thread and why i directed it to him is because the way it can be read as a sales ploy after all he does put his website on every post he makes that is free advertising,
Now if one can come up with a little new bit to down the ScHh dogs or how they work then you could call it a sales ploy and remember Gustave The English language was not Invented by the USA, they adopted the language only and you use a slang version of it not the proper worded language as taught in an English School
and before you say it the English language was invented around the year 560 and was bought over to England and it was then refined to what it is now by the English people, then it spread throughout the world in slang forms of speech and dialects and yours is one of them so you can hardly tell a true born Brit how to speak English
It is so simple to breed from any couch potato Dog and make a case for it, But if a Dog has never been tested in anything how the bloody hell can that person say they are bettering the breed by breeding from a dog who has not been tested in any way
One thing Sch does is to test the temperament of the Dog, it also tells you if the Dog is sound in body and limb through its work it also tells you that it possess a certain amount of courage, and ability and as you well know to get a Dog Korclassed is not just about working ability, and i am not talking about run of the mill club Dogs i am talking about dogs which win in top competitions but you Guys certainly do not value them to any degree yet so many Dogs are bred today without any proof of sound Joints and and temperament testing at all and that is okay
Of course the ones breeding will say it is okay they are bringing in the money for them
To me they are Puppy Mills even if you only have one dog if the Joints are not breedable and no effort has been put into testing the Dog in any shape or form and i am not just refering to the Sch sport then it is being bred only to bring in the Dollars
Finally if we do not agree with the 'Click' and yes there is one on this Forum and you are one of them then we others know nothing but that is what you only think, Get your ass over here and work with some of the best over here then we will be certain to see what you know and you do not need to bring a Dog for if you are that good then any dog from here you should be able to take over and work it, or bring your Dog over and they will show you how to work it
So Lads get on and talk between yourselves, Perhaps the owner of this site should bring in another section on the forum for exclusive members only who think they have superior dog Knowledge than the rest of us Guys, then a handful of the regular ones can talk to themselves
Steve1
and the post was directed to Praeger who started the thread and why i directed it to him is because the way it can be read as a sales ploy after all he does put his website on every post he makes that is free advertising,
Now if one can come up with a little new bit to down the ScHh dogs or how they work then you could call it a sales ploy and remember Gustave The English language was not Invented by the USA, they adopted the language only and you use a slang version of it not the proper worded language as taught in an English School
and before you say it the English language was invented around the year 560 and was bought over to England and it was then refined to what it is now by the English people, then it spread throughout the world in slang forms of speech and dialects and yours is one of them so you can hardly tell a true born Brit how to speak English
It is so simple to breed from any couch potato Dog and make a case for it, But if a Dog has never been tested in anything how the bloody hell can that person say they are bettering the breed by breeding from a dog who has not been tested in any way
One thing Sch does is to test the temperament of the Dog, it also tells you if the Dog is sound in body and limb through its work it also tells you that it possess a certain amount of courage, and ability and as you well know to get a Dog Korclassed is not just about working ability, and i am not talking about run of the mill club Dogs i am talking about dogs which win in top competitions but you Guys certainly do not value them to any degree yet so many Dogs are bred today without any proof of sound Joints and and temperament testing at all and that is okay
Of course the ones breeding will say it is okay they are bringing in the money for them
To me they are Puppy Mills even if you only have one dog if the Joints are not breedable and no effort has been put into testing the Dog in any shape or form and i am not just refering to the Sch sport then it is being bred only to bring in the Dollars
Finally if we do not agree with the 'Click' and yes there is one on this Forum and you are one of them then we others know nothing but that is what you only think, Get your ass over here and work with some of the best over here then we will be certain to see what you know and you do not need to bring a Dog for if you are that good then any dog from here you should be able to take over and work it, or bring your Dog over and they will show you how to work it
So Lads get on and talk between yourselves, Perhaps the owner of this site should bring in another section on the forum for exclusive members only who think they have superior dog Knowledge than the rest of us Guys, then a handful of the regular ones can talk to themselves
Steve1
by Gustav on 14 February 2010 - 00:02
Steve, m'lad, I titled a dog in Sch in 1982...what was you doing in dogs at that time? I really don't care what you lads over there think about me. The title was about assessing dogs, not about Sch....maybe you missed that. I have trained police/military dogs for over thirty years, I have titled a dog in Sch in the eighties and in 2003. After training dogs to go defend our country in Viet Nam, You think I need or seek approval from you in Europe to TRAIN a dog. Don't delude yourself!!
You always try to twist any conversation into what you do in Europe vs what we do in the States. Understand this, I really don't wake up aspiring to be Europe like in any aspect of my life. I am content with what I do, and don't need comparisons with Europe to VALIDATE anything I do.
Lastly, I don't view the top competitions in Sch as the be all or end all, so your constant reference to it makes no point with me. I train police dogs for police, you train dogs for Sch, let's leave it at that. The comparison between the continents is the only thing you are bringing to the table as far as I am concerned, and its on the backs of people you train with not you yourself. So you laugh at me....hey M'lad right back at you.
You always try to twist any conversation into what you do in Europe vs what we do in the States. Understand this, I really don't wake up aspiring to be Europe like in any aspect of my life. I am content with what I do, and don't need comparisons with Europe to VALIDATE anything I do.
Lastly, I don't view the top competitions in Sch as the be all or end all, so your constant reference to it makes no point with me. I train police dogs for police, you train dogs for Sch, let's leave it at that. The comparison between the continents is the only thing you are bringing to the table as far as I am concerned, and its on the backs of people you train with not you yourself. So you laugh at me....hey M'lad right back at you.
by yoshy on 14 February 2010 - 00:02
I would like to re-direct this thread-
For those of us whom assess there dogs for breeding beyond schh, How are you conducting your assessments, what do they intel, and what are you assessing for all life stages(puppy, green, adult) and how do the tests differ?
I am very curious to the break down of your assessments and how you are bypassing the fact that the dogs are groom/trained from a very early age to get to the core of the dog. Many of us have learned that titles mean little when speaking of the true temperament of the dogs and the problems that can be masked through training for the sport field just as you have mentioned. Also how you would segregate the issues that would be environmental ( do to insufficient raising/training/experiences/developement) from those which are genetically predispositioned?
Lee
For those of us whom assess there dogs for breeding beyond schh, How are you conducting your assessments, what do they intel, and what are you assessing for all life stages(puppy, green, adult) and how do the tests differ?
I am very curious to the break down of your assessments and how you are bypassing the fact that the dogs are groom/trained from a very early age to get to the core of the dog. Many of us have learned that titles mean little when speaking of the true temperament of the dogs and the problems that can be masked through training for the sport field just as you have mentioned. Also how you would segregate the issues that would be environmental ( do to insufficient raising/training/experiences/developement) from those which are genetically predispositioned?
Lee
by Gustav on 14 February 2010 - 00:02
Lee, I think this plugs into what i was talking about earlier in difference in mentality in training these days. I think that many issues arise from a lack of exposure of our young dogs to training outside of a set skill or pattern. I think when you dogs are tested using learned commands in many different places and variations it helps the young dog to think as it executes. I don't know if there is a set routine "exposure" as much as varied and well thought out places and scenarios to train in. Like doing early protection work inside vacant buildings as well as open fields. Night training and giving dogs commands in water. I teach my dogs to sit in shallow part of ocean with small waves coming in. You'd be surprised how many trained dogs will not sit in water that is moving. Walking up metal steps and across metal grates and having the dog sit on the metal grate while you walk away. Little things like these I want to see how well the dog learns and adapts. there are others but i think these things are important to me in assessing nerve.
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