Pup Vomit after eat???? - Page 4

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Prager

by Prager on 13 December 2009 - 01:12

TO :hodie

Right; as you state:" this pup may or may not have this problem."
 However if it does, then  it needs immediate attention, and  then  discussions about wet food, and eating grass are waste of time. Thus I am just pointing out megaesophagus  like a  possible  cause, unless pup eats grass and puke for that reason.
Also since you are throwing around advices to me  how it works in "medicine" I would like to point out to you,  that you are wrong that it not the  most obvious problem  which is being worked  first on, as you say. However  the problem which is THE  most threatening  to survival is eliminated first. This is called triage.:)Thus megaesophagus is more threatening to the survival of the pup then mundane eating of the grass or fast eating of the food.
Also you for example stated that:

"I doubt (that it is) megaesophagus as there would be other difficulties noted before now."

Which is  totally false statement, as anybody who knows anything about this problem knows .
http://www.caninemegaesophagus.org/
So not even you are as well aware of the problem as you may present here.
WET FOOD
Eating wet food and commercial kibble has been for long time suspect of such food causing bloat for logical reasons stated by me above. Off course studies financed by Purina and such deny that. This had been observed by breeders  and vets in Czech republic after the convenience of granulated food arrived there. Bloat cases were suddenly  more common. It is unnatural for animals to eat food in such unnatural form and there are consequences. Increased bloat is one of them.
Also your statement:
"...as you well no,(there is) not a SINGLE definitive study that associates anything like this with gastric torsion or otherwise.."
No I do not well no (know).
This is just another untrue statement of yours. A recent Purdue University Study besides many other interesting facts states that, and I quote:"The risk of GDV (Gastric Dilatation
Volvulus =bloat) increased 4.2-fold in dogs that ate dry foods containing citric acid when the food was moistened prior to feeding."....while 32% could be attributed to consumption of owner-moistened dry foods that also contained citric acid
The very same study also states :Dry foods containing meat meal with bone among the first four ingredients significantly decreased GDV risk (53.0%). Which supports directly my statement about exercising the stomach as a muscle since this meat meal with bone is creating resistant mass on which the stomach muscle needs to work.
here is the link:
http://www.2ndchance.info/bloat.htm
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
 


Prager

by Prager on 13 December 2009 - 01:12

DebiSue
Not all dogs will get bloat and die if they eat wet food.  If your dog is older I recommend this recipe: Cook pasta with meat like chicken chunks or beef chunks . Add pinch of sea salt and 1-2  table spoons of blended apple or carrot puree with parsley. It is not that expensive if you shop in walmart for cheapest ingredients. It is actually cheaper that any
fancy-schmaltzy dog food kibble.
PragerHans 
http://www.alpinek9.com

by hodie on 13 December 2009 - 03:12

I am well aware of the Purdue study you quote from an old web site Hans. I know the Purdue link and read it long, long ago. For what it is worth, the study is NOT recent and is many years old, was conducted on a very small number of dogs (well less than 100 and if memory serves me, maybe not even 60 dogs), and was not definitive by any stretch of the imagination. The study would not pass the most basic statistical analysis for validity.

Since the pup is living and doing well most of the time, the likelihood that the pup is in dire straights is slim. So therefore, the triage you suggest should, in fact, begin with the most simple things being ruled out. There is another reason to do it this way, especially to prevent large sums of money being spent when, in fact, there is a possibility that the pup has parasites, eats too fast, or has some other problem. Could it be a more serious problem? Of course, that is always a possibility. But I stand by what I say. I have fed hundreds of GSDs over the years, with wetted kibble as have many others here fed their dogs with wetted kibble. The bottom line is that no one knows the real reasons for bloat, but likely there is some physiological basis that allows the condition to develop in SOME dogs.

To each his own, but, as Debi already has figured out, one does what works for them.

by hodie on 13 December 2009 - 03:12

I am well aware of the Purdue study you quote from an old web site Hans. I know the Purdue link and read it long, long ago. For what it is worth, the study is NOT recent and is many years old (2000), was conducted on a very small number of dogs (well less than 1100), and was not definitive by any stretch of the imagination. The study would not pass the most basic statistical analysis for validity.

Since the pup is living and doing well most of the time, the likelihood that the pup is in dire straights is slim. So therefore, the triage you suggest should, in fact, begin with the most simple things being ruled out. There is another reason to do it this way, especially to prevent large sums of money being spent when, in fact, there is a possibility that the pup has parasites, eats too fast, or has some other problem. Could it be a more serious problem? Of course, that is always a possibility. But I stand by what I say. I have fed hundreds of GSDs over the years, with wetted kibble as have many others here fed their dogs with wetted kibble. The bottom line is that no one knows the real reasons for bloat, but likely there is some physiological basis that allows the condition to develop in SOME dogs.

To each his own, but, as Debi already has figured out, one does what works for them.

Prager

by Prager on 13 December 2009 - 04:12

to hodie
 Relativity of what is recent is unimportant here. However there is new study which was done in February 2009.  Is this recent enough for you?  This study recommends : When feeding dry food, also include foods with sufficient amounts of meats and meat meals, for example: beef, lamb, poultry, and fish. * Feed a food with larger particles, and include larger pieces of meat to the diet. * Avoid moistening dry foods.Information from:
Emily K. Hamlyn, Boston University School of Medicine
 As far as Purdue study goes.
Hodie;  You say that you are familiar with this study ?  I doubt it.
      Veterinary practitioners and owners in the Midwest participated in Purdue's bloat study by identifying in their practices 59 pairs of dogs.It was done by Dr. Lawrence Glickman and coinvestigator Dr. Garry Lantz at Purdue University who have completed Phase I of an epidemiology study and are beginning Phase II.
 Dr. Glickman's team also analyzed information from twelve veterinary teaching hospitals from 1980 to 1989. They evaluated information that had been collected on the VNMB comparing 1,934 dogs with naturally occurring bloat and 3,868 dogs without bloat. The dogs’ weight, breed and certain other characteristics were evaluated.  So that is slightly more then 60. So again misstatement of the facts on part of hodie.

  And it is not the true that you eliminate the simplest things first during triage . You pay attention to the potentially most dangerous ones first. You would not pass simple EMT test. 
  Dogs megaesophagus starts usually intermittently, thus that the pup is usually OK as you state is not significant.
  And the cost? To put the hand over the pups mouth as I described above does not cost a penny. Also if pups aspires the vomit and gets pneumonia that can be very expensive or deadly.  But you would rather wet the food. Oh well...why are you misstating facts and making light of this? I do not understand.
 
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
 

Prager

by Prager on 13 December 2009 - 04:12

Hodie says
I am well aware of the Purdue study you quote from an old web site Hans. I know the Purdue link and read it long, long ago. For what it is worth, the study is NOT recent and is many years old, was conducted on a very small number of dogs (well less than 100 and if memory serves me, maybe not even 60 dogs), and was not definitive by any stretch of the imagination. The study would not pass the most basic statistical analysis for validity.

And then Hodie says: 
I am well aware of the Purdue study you quote from an old web site Hans. I know the Purdue link and read it long, long ago. For what it is worth, the study is NOT recent and is many years old (2000), was conducted on a very small number of dogs (well less than 1100), and was not definitive by any stretch of the imagination. The study would not pass the most basic statistical analysis for validity.





Hodie since you are well aware of the Purdue study which one of your posts would you like us to take seriously. The one which states that the study did not include more then 60 dogs or the one which states that it did not include more then 1100? Well it was something like almost 6000 dogs. I guess less then 1100 could be "not even 60" ...I guess:)

Well I am done for today. Time for a beer. Pilsner Urquelle time!!!!
Prager Hans 

Red Sable

by Red Sable on 13 December 2009 - 13:12

Well, I"ll go out on a limb and say  bloat is caused from an unhealthy gut.  Which is why raw fed dogs have  less instances.  I can prevent a horse from getting colic which is pretty much the same, by feeding enzymes and pro biotics. 

Dogs were not meant to eat dry dog food.

Prager

by Prager on 13 December 2009 - 15:12

Red Sable
Yes enzymes are very important. The commercial dog food is void of natural enzymes as it is found in raw or lightly cooked food. I always recommend this test.
Put on sun a peace of meat  in one dish and dry kibble in the other and then go look at it after 5 days.  You will see dry kibble unchanged and meat will be full of maggots. So now let me ask you why would you want to feed your dog something what not even maggots want to eat?
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

by hodie on 13 December 2009 - 15:12

 You certainly have a lot of scientific means to assess the quality of food! LOL.

For what it is worth, I have served many, many years as a chief paramedic. For what it is worth, you miss the point completely Hans. This pup is NOT dying and the urgency you seem to feel is unwarranted. The pup should be checked out for certain. But to jump to the worst possible conclusion is not necessary. But you have your mind made up so I am not going to belabor this anymore. What is important here is for people who are reading to know that there are other possibilities and other options. NO ONE should depend on anything written here, by me, by you or anyone else as a substitute for good veterinary care or common sense.

Two Moons

by Two Moons on 13 December 2009 - 16:12

Agreed.





 


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