Does OFA sucks? - Page 3

Yes, and this is another thing that ticks me off with OFA. If you get an older sport / tournament dog who's been banging decoys on long run outs for years, and he's got a bit of arthritis in his spine (normal for such dogs, really and one caviat against buying them for breeding), and you send their x-ray in to OFA, they may pass on the hips, but OFA will not waste the opportunity to pipe up about the arthritic spine. Like, who asked them? But, they put it in the dog's report and file.. You send for a hip evaluation and number, and they want to comment on anything else they see. Well, why not just x-ray the whole dog and let them comment on that?

I think it's just another expression of the anal retentive syndrome they seem to suffer from. I personally find it VERY irritating.

I'm going back to the days when they first started the OFA registry. Never thought I would get to the point where I questioned them, and I have had many nice conversations with Dr. Corley, DVM, over the years. I think it's just characteristic that a lot of things start out good and end up sort of sinking under their own weight, in a quagmire of their own making.

To sum it up, I think that OFA's problem is that they are trying too hard to accomplish things which may or may not be beneficial in the long run, and exceed the purpose for which they were established. They should only be doing one thing, and that is to either detect the radiographic evidence of HD. They should stay out of trying to remake the breeds to some sort of radiographic ideal profile, which may or may not be realistic. I do think that they stepping over the line of impartiality, here.

You know.. Bones are not concrete. They are built from colonies of living cells, and respond to environmental factors like work and stress. Forensics analysts can look at the skeleton of a laborer and they can tell that they did heavy work, because their bones actually adapt to increased stress and workload. In fact, few people can really appreciate how fast the changes can occur.. major changes in the skeleton or a joint can occur in as little as two weeks. Believe me.. I have seen it, myself. I think we really need to re-evaluate our entire approach to this problem. Surely it is useful.. VERY useful.. to have a board to evaluate a dog and give it a number for purposes of certification. On the other hand, we should be aware that there are a lot of environmental factors and other mitigating factors involved.  Coming from someone like me, who used to practice OFA certification like a religion, that should give pause for thought.

That said, be assured that I think it is incumbent on everyone who considers to breed their dog/s to do your radiographs, and know what you have. Then make your own decision, but just keep in mind that we are looking at the total dog. An otherwise outstanding or unique animal might merit consideration for breeding, even if he does not pass OFA.

Yes, Prager.. I'd breed to that dog in a heartbeat, if I liked the dog. Look at the heavy muscling in the thighs.. lots of bulk, there. You can see it in the x-rays. This is precisely the scenario I am talking about. These old type working dogs are a completely different phenotype than the side-gaiting show type dogs.

One thing also is consistent with this view.. In my experience, the OFA fairs do tend to reproduce other OFA fairs. I had a line which produced lots of fair ratings. all like this, and they tended to be more robust and muscular. They were excellent working dogs. It is a type. But they do not degenerate or show any sort of instability. These are functionally sound, strong dogs. There is nothing wrong with them, and it happens to be the type of dog I prefer. I like a dog with a little bit of beef on them.. as long as they are tight and strong, and not sloppy and loose in their constitution.

Has anyone out there ever rebuilt an automobile engine? I have.. I've taken cranks to the machine shop and selected bearings to match, installed everything, reassembled the engine, started it up and driven tens of thousands of miles on it. It's no different when you look at the hip joint of a dog. You are looking at a bearing, there.. complete with it's own lubrication system, even! Just like an automobile needs oil for lubrication (wear protection), the hip joint of a dog also has the same need and nature provides. That whole junction between the acetabulum (cup, or socket) and the femoral head (ball) is surrounded by a capsule with it's own lubrication gland. Picture a deflated basketball, punched in on one side, so that it has one concave and one convex surface and that gives you some idea what it's like. It completely surrounds this joint. Now.. If for some reason it becomes inflamed (usually because of injury or disease), the blood flow will increase and arthritic spurs will be laid down in that area. These will show later on as opaque or whitish spots on the film. If there is even one such little speck of arthritis on the film, OFA will call that dog dysplastic, even if the hip joints are otherwise excellent in conformation. The tiny speck of arthritis can be "idiopathic".. unknown origin. Doesn't matter.. "Dysplastic". No OFA. I had one like this, once. It really killed me, but I played by the rules. Meanwhile, the staffer there told me that a well known local police dog trainer was bringing in the same dog, over and over again, always with different papers. That's not so easy to do, anymore. They compare these x-rays and they can tell if it's the same dog, or at least they get suspicious.. but, probably only if they get a tip.
Well, back to this dog in question.. There is a lot of good quality in that hip, when you look at it as a bearing. Bearings must have close tolerances and smooth, well fitting surfaces. This dog looks good to me from that standpoint. So, his femoral neck angle is not what OFA thinks of as ideal.. WTF? There is no evidence of degenerative changes, no arthritis and he's seven years old? If that isn't good, I don't know what is.. OFA is waxing anal, IMO... Maybe it's their service which has degenerated from "excellent" to "fair"..

This dog is 5. Not a big difference IMO between 5 and 7 in this scenario though.

What do they do if they have an old rating on the dog w/new xrays? I would think they'd have quite a bias against said dog, being that they already evaluated him, infallibly of course. LOL.

Lets face it OFA sucks.  whoever posted the top 10, spot on!

Find a board certified radiologist in your area that does LOTS of hip xrays especially german shepherds.  You will get your money's worth .  

If you are in Ohio, (my favorite person is retired now) still in business is Lonnie (cant remember his last name)a veterinarian  in Troy Ohio. 

And the University always has its useful experts.  ( any vet school should do)

Prager, your bell curve theory is not to applicable to genetics here.  Actually you can take an "OFA fair" dog and breed to OFA fair and have a likelhood of as many or more passing hips than higher grades bred.  It all depends on the totality of the family lines and so the SV ZW system is a good one. 

Good luck and don't shoot the dog.

Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com

B. Anderson
 
What do you disagree with? You just have said the same thing as I did in different words. It is what we have developed with Tina from Shiloh shepherds about 30 years ago. It is called LMX (Litter mates x rayed.) Now some people call it vertical pedigree study. That is the only way to improve hips if it is done within 3-5 or more generations. This is off course not very practical because there is not very many dogs who will pass this rule (no more then 10% littermates can have HD in order to the littermate with good hips to be bred) and if you stick to it too rigidly you will then narrow the genetic pool and start having other problems. 
This is only a good rule of the thumb which is good to use if  other traits and broadness of genetic pool. is being preserved. 
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com 

DDR-DSH
I have never said that I would not breed to " Fair"  dog.  I would and I have and I will.  All I am saying is that if all is the same, then  I will select the better hips.
 If you have problem with that then we must agree to disagree. Otherwise I agree with everything what you said.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Jenni78
The dog is out of all Czech lines. Total outcross. Has Titus z Ps in 3rd genration.  All working lines and police lines with working Czech border patroll dogs. All hips   except one B are  A in 3 generations.
I believe out of 3rd blood line.  (Klodo v Boxberg)  The dog himself was hard working and top sport dog.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Interesting, Prager. The "style" of the hips reminded me of the ones I posted in the other thread. Like DDR-DSH was saying, I think this "type" gets a bad rap!

Nancy, you breed- have you sold dogs out of non-OFA'd parents? What was the reaction, if so? I, personally, wouldn't hesitate to do it in special circumstances, provided the buyers looked at the dogs' actual xrays and I would give an excellent guarantee. It's all a crapshoot anyway, right? If we had it all figured out, HD wouldn't be such an issue anymore.

If we had it all figured out, HD wouldn't be such an issue anymore.

I agree Jenni. Testing for HD is a tool and not the rule. As is common knowledge, HD has several factors involved. Too many people put too much emphasis on the hip grade. It's important,but it's not fool proof...and like has already been discussed, there is the rest of the dog. However, you have to know your pedigree and know what you are doing! ;-)

I was involved in a rare breed that had a limited gene pool. If we got rid of all of the hip grade fair dogs, we would have been throwing out working ability, type, and healthy dogs. We would have been very sorry.

Observation is also key. If a GOOD dog can basically "work all day" and grow old with no significant hip problems except for elder arthritis, I would never throw that dog out of the gene pool. That's how it used to be done when folks started breeding dogs. If a dog could work and not get sick or crippled, they bred more to that line.