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by LukasGS on 11 February 2010 - 03:02
Sorry, forgot to add that bit. He just turned 1 on January 1st.
by LAVK-9 on 11 February 2010 - 05:02
This is what Vom Marischal(sp?) posted on the thread I started about DNA and color
"The way it was explained to me in another thread, the dog is still black. Black and white are masking genes, and underneath the black or white blanket are the unseen true colors of the dog (sable or black and tan). So that bit of beige that you see on a black dog is its true color "bleeding thru," so to speak. Everyone I know who has a black dog with a little tan on its hocks/pasterns/toes has registered the dogs as black, because it was solid black as a puppy and does indeed have the black masking gene. As I understand it. And my grasp on genetics is tenuous at best".
"The way it was explained to me in another thread, the dog is still black. Black and white are masking genes, and underneath the black or white blanket are the unseen true colors of the dog (sable or black and tan). So that bit of beige that you see on a black dog is its true color "bleeding thru," so to speak. Everyone I know who has a black dog with a little tan on its hocks/pasterns/toes has registered the dogs as black, because it was solid black as a puppy and does indeed have the black masking gene. As I understand it. And my grasp on genetics is tenuous at best".
by eichenluft on 11 February 2010 - 07:02
Hmmm - not sure that I agree with black being a masking gene. I do understand that to be true about white, however.
Fact is, some black dogs have "bleeding", especially as they age. Others dont. I don't believe there to be any difference in the genetics - black dogs have two black genes, so maybe they do throw blacks with "bleeding", but maybe they don't. Hard to tell. I think from personal experience it is normal to see some amount of "bleeding" on black dogs, as they age. Normally young black dogs don't have it, but some do. Most older black dogs do, to varying degrees. I have a 3 year old black female with a small amount of bleeding on her wrists and between toes, this may be more as she ages, or may remain a small amount. A 4 year old male black I have has no bleeding - yet. This picture is a black dog with quite a bit of bleeding - to the point he may (possibly) be mistaken for a bicolor - he is not, he is a black dog genetically. Second picture is another black dog whose bleeding has extended a little farther. She is still black.
Basically you can tell if a puppy is bicolor by looking at the vent (under the tail) even at birth the vent will be tan or even almost white. Black dogs have black vents, bicolors have light vents that is very clear - even if the rest of the bicolor puppy is solid black - if the vent is light, it's bicolor. if it's black, it's black.
Bleeding does not make a black dog genetically bicolor - the black dog remains black genetically, it cannot produce a bicolor (unless bred to one or the mate has bicolor gene to give to the puppies). It can only pass on a black gene.
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Both of these dogs are black, in fact they are full siblings - bicolor dam and black sire. Both are black, both have bleeding, obviously the female has more that has gotten more obvious with age.
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Fact is, some black dogs have "bleeding", especially as they age. Others dont. I don't believe there to be any difference in the genetics - black dogs have two black genes, so maybe they do throw blacks with "bleeding", but maybe they don't. Hard to tell. I think from personal experience it is normal to see some amount of "bleeding" on black dogs, as they age. Normally young black dogs don't have it, but some do. Most older black dogs do, to varying degrees. I have a 3 year old black female with a small amount of bleeding on her wrists and between toes, this may be more as she ages, or may remain a small amount. A 4 year old male black I have has no bleeding - yet. This picture is a black dog with quite a bit of bleeding - to the point he may (possibly) be mistaken for a bicolor - he is not, he is a black dog genetically. Second picture is another black dog whose bleeding has extended a little farther. She is still black.
Basically you can tell if a puppy is bicolor by looking at the vent (under the tail) even at birth the vent will be tan or even almost white. Black dogs have black vents, bicolors have light vents that is very clear - even if the rest of the bicolor puppy is solid black - if the vent is light, it's bicolor. if it's black, it's black.
Bleeding does not make a black dog genetically bicolor - the black dog remains black genetically, it cannot produce a bicolor (unless bred to one or the mate has bicolor gene to give to the puppies). It can only pass on a black gene.
Both of these dogs are black, in fact they are full siblings - bicolor dam and black sire. Both are black, both have bleeding, obviously the female has more that has gotten more obvious with age.
by Ibrahim on 11 February 2010 - 08:02
Eichenluft,
I saw your above post and thought I should tell you this (Lucas excuse me for going a little away from the original ppost topic).
Eichenluft: Remember Erri od Roubenky, I posted on him before and asked you to comment on his color, I want you to know that the rules or say basics you defend and always explain, you are correct about them, there might be exceptions to every rule but the rules themselves are correct, Erri is developing more black on the faded markings, tarheels etc. You are correct.
Ibrahim
I saw your above post and thought I should tell you this (Lucas excuse me for going a little away from the original ppost topic).
Eichenluft: Remember Erri od Roubenky, I posted on him before and asked you to comment on his color, I want you to know that the rules or say basics you defend and always explain, you are correct about them, there might be exceptions to every rule but the rules themselves are correct, Erri is developing more black on the faded markings, tarheels etc. You are correct.
Ibrahim
by VomMarischal on 11 February 2010 - 08:02
That idea came from Silbersee and makes a lot of sense to me: (hope it's ok to quote you on this, Chris)
Hey Robin,
here is a link to Germany's 2008 Universal Sieger. Hard to believe but Woody is still described as a black dog: www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/105712/Woody-vom-Dreisbachtal
I was told that as long as the dog's vent (under the tail) is black as well, the genetic make-up is considered as solid black. But the black gene is a masking gene. Therefore, a black dog is not necessarily useful to enhance pigment or black markings. In addition, black dogs can and often do carry the "white spotting" gene (which has nothing to do with the color white as in the Swiss Shepherds). I have a 4 month old black puppy at home with a small white spot on her chest. It irritates my husband but I think it is cute. These spots are quite common in black and red and sable dogs but not very noticable. Anyway, I remember Oso's thread about her black dog with the bleed through sable pattern. For me that is proof that black is a masking gene. In Oso's case it did not quite mask everything, maybe. I have a newborn litter with blacks and dark sables here and have not figured out how many are truly black and which are very dark sable. A couple where I thought they were black have a couple lighter areas which I thought was caused by the red heating light. So, I have to wait and see. The sire is a Czech dog where the sable coloring is completely different than the showlines. Which brings us back to the topic, lol.
Chris
Hey Robin,
here is a link to Germany's 2008 Universal Sieger. Hard to believe but Woody is still described as a black dog: www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/105712/Woody-vom-Dreisbachtal
I was told that as long as the dog's vent (under the tail) is black as well, the genetic make-up is considered as solid black. But the black gene is a masking gene. Therefore, a black dog is not necessarily useful to enhance pigment or black markings. In addition, black dogs can and often do carry the "white spotting" gene (which has nothing to do with the color white as in the Swiss Shepherds). I have a 4 month old black puppy at home with a small white spot on her chest. It irritates my husband but I think it is cute. These spots are quite common in black and red and sable dogs but not very noticable. Anyway, I remember Oso's thread about her black dog with the bleed through sable pattern. For me that is proof that black is a masking gene. In Oso's case it did not quite mask everything, maybe. I have a newborn litter with blacks and dark sables here and have not figured out how many are truly black and which are very dark sable. A couple where I thought they were black have a couple lighter areas which I thought was caused by the red heating light. So, I have to wait and see. The sire is a Czech dog where the sable coloring is completely different than the showlines. Which brings us back to the topic, lol.
Chris
by eichenluft on 11 February 2010 - 14:02
Chris, normally with baby puppies you will see the color that they really are - they then start to lighten up (sables and black/tans) and darken (bicolors) later on. If your puppies are black, they will have a black vent and NO shadings or bleeding anywhere. They will be black at birth. If you see anything other than black that is not caused by the heat lamp, they are not black puppies - they are probably very dark sable. Look at the vent to be sure if a puppy is black or not.
molly
molly
by Silbersee on 11 February 2010 - 14:02
Good Morning vomMarishal,
no problem that you copied my post here at all.
As to the question of the black gene being a masking gene, I can only state my opinion which makes sense to me. I have been reading Malcolm Willis' book "The German Shepherd Dog - A Genetic History", the 1991 edition (which I think is the newest?), page 37 through 41. This is what I get in simple terms from these pages:
1) The black color in our breed is a simple recessive of the agouti series as detailed by Carver (1984) which means in laymen terms that both parents have to carry this gene for the coat color to appear, unlike Labs for example. Under the Agouti or A series, the black color is described as "A" - dominant black! Now, that combination is not present in our breed, only the "a" - black. If a dog is black in phenotype, his genotype is "aa".
2) Willis uses a lot of quotes to Little (1957) and Carver (1984) and mentions that these two did not differentiate between bi-color (which is described as a-t) and saddle marked black and tan (which is described as a-s). Note that the SV does not differentiate in their coat color description between these two either. And Willis notes that there are "several kinds of color format".
3) The "Black or B series" describes the incidence of black vs. liver, and "The Dilution or D series" describes the black vs. blue incidence in GSDs. I doubt if the reasons for some masking or bleeding could be found here., but..
4) On page 40, Willis describes "The Extension or E series". This series was first mentioned by Little (1914) and has 4 alleles, E-m (black mask), E (dark coat but no black mask except in black dogs), e-br (brindle) and e (clear tan. In a homozygous state (ee) causes black pigment to fade to tan). Willis is certain "that all 4 alleles exist in our breed even though the brindle allele is very very rare".
So to sum up, when I read this, I personally come to the conclusion that the black gene could be a masking gene because
we can all agree that black is not a pigment enhancer (neither is white of course, or a diluter for that matter) and more than "The Agouti or A series" influences the coat color in our dogs.
If a dilution or masking factor causes this bleeding in certain black dogs, I don't know. All I know is that it must be an inherited trait because none of my black dogs experience that. They are all related, of course.
When I have time, I need to research if there are any newer studies on coat color than Willis in 1991.
Regards, Chris
no problem that you copied my post here at all.
As to the question of the black gene being a masking gene, I can only state my opinion which makes sense to me. I have been reading Malcolm Willis' book "The German Shepherd Dog - A Genetic History", the 1991 edition (which I think is the newest?), page 37 through 41. This is what I get in simple terms from these pages:
1) The black color in our breed is a simple recessive of the agouti series as detailed by Carver (1984) which means in laymen terms that both parents have to carry this gene for the coat color to appear, unlike Labs for example. Under the Agouti or A series, the black color is described as "A" - dominant black! Now, that combination is not present in our breed, only the "a" - black. If a dog is black in phenotype, his genotype is "aa".
2) Willis uses a lot of quotes to Little (1957) and Carver (1984) and mentions that these two did not differentiate between bi-color (which is described as a-t) and saddle marked black and tan (which is described as a-s). Note that the SV does not differentiate in their coat color description between these two either. And Willis notes that there are "several kinds of color format".
3) The "Black or B series" describes the incidence of black vs. liver, and "The Dilution or D series" describes the black vs. blue incidence in GSDs. I doubt if the reasons for some masking or bleeding could be found here., but..
4) On page 40, Willis describes "The Extension or E series". This series was first mentioned by Little (1914) and has 4 alleles, E-m (black mask), E (dark coat but no black mask except in black dogs), e-br (brindle) and e (clear tan. In a homozygous state (ee) causes black pigment to fade to tan). Willis is certain "that all 4 alleles exist in our breed even though the brindle allele is very very rare".
So to sum up, when I read this, I personally come to the conclusion that the black gene could be a masking gene because
we can all agree that black is not a pigment enhancer (neither is white of course, or a diluter for that matter) and more than "The Agouti or A series" influences the coat color in our dogs.
If a dilution or masking factor causes this bleeding in certain black dogs, I don't know. All I know is that it must be an inherited trait because none of my black dogs experience that. They are all related, of course.
When I have time, I need to research if there are any newer studies on coat color than Willis in 1991.
Regards, Chris
by Silbersee on 11 February 2010 - 15:02
Hey Molly, we posted at the same time. What you replied to was just a quote from a previous post I made on a different thread.
But yes, you are right. That is how we found the sables - we looked at the vent. And now they lightnened up to the point where the sable pattern is clearly visible at 4 weeks of age.
But yes, you are right. That is how we found the sables - we looked at the vent. And now they lightnened up to the point where the sable pattern is clearly visible at 4 weeks of age.
by VomMarischal on 11 February 2010 - 17:02
The bi-color girl in my avatar was born completely black, including vent...just that tiny white goatee that subsequently went away. Then her legs and vent began to lighten up when she was about four weeks old. I had expected her to be black because she has a black grandfather. As for the other half, I don't know about the color of her other grandfather because he is Czech and I can't find pictures of most of the dogs on that half, but her father is a "blanket back." Anyhow, she did come out bi-color as you can see. But her legs are SO light that I wouldn't really call it tan bleeding thru the black masking gene. Plus...she is a heck of a lot darker than either parent (sable mother), so it's a bit like she came out of left field.
Two puppies in that litter were liver. I think that's important in this mix-up. Obviously neither the stud owner nor I had any idea we had liver in our lines...but we know now! I try to ask stud owners now whether they throw liver, but obviously they will say no until it happens because they have no way to know! I wish I knew whether the bi color girl's genetics preclude the possbility of liver. That would be great to work out. All this would be a lot easier to understand if breeders were more honest about their dogs throwing liver or blue...we'd have so much more data.
And THAT is why I practically memorized Silbersee's response to the color question in a previous thread!
Two puppies in that litter were liver. I think that's important in this mix-up. Obviously neither the stud owner nor I had any idea we had liver in our lines...but we know now! I try to ask stud owners now whether they throw liver, but obviously they will say no until it happens because they have no way to know! I wish I knew whether the bi color girl's genetics preclude the possbility of liver. That would be great to work out. All this would be a lot easier to understand if breeders were more honest about their dogs throwing liver or blue...we'd have so much more data.
And THAT is why I practically memorized Silbersee's response to the color question in a previous thread!
by LAVK-9 on 11 February 2010 - 17:02
You guys are awesome!! Great info!!! Ok then....I have heard that sables are used to bring out darker pigment in a litter.As in it would be bred to a bitch that is light wether it be a light sable or(not that I would do it but) B&T with saddle.(say showline dog coloring) {and no this isn't about bashing showlines just describing color pattern} lol
~L~
~L~
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