This is a placeholder text
Group text
by wrestleman on 28 January 2010 - 19:01
Slamdunc you are not reading what i said. I simply think its easier to get a good Mali than a GS. I have a female GS that I think is as good a dog as ever lived. My choice is a GS but with that said I have had some super malinois. I never compared a show dog GS to a working GS There is no comparison, hell they are for the most part 2 different breeds. I have had and seen a few good Dutch shepherds as well but not so many. I think the biggest problems we see over the past 10 to 20 years with the GS is the lack of fight drive and true natural aggression. This has not been a problem so much in the malinois. I would take a good German shepherd over any breed I just think its much harder to find this now.
by Phil Behun on 28 January 2010 - 19:01
Bottom line, why is there a difference in the bite work at the Sieger Show? Why is it not the same? Are they not one breed? Do not "show" dog people insist that their dogs are "working dogs"? Read the earlier post from Gustav, show line dogs can do the same work as the working line dogs, I just happened to pick a video of the "best" show dogs exemplifying poor work. You know, searched far and wide. No, just Google any of the VA dogs on the big stage and you will see identical videos. These are the "big money" dogs that the controlling faction force feeds on us. I just witnessed the work of a (from what I was told) $30,000 show dog falls off of the arm. FALLS OFF OF THE ARM.
Why is it that testosterone freaks always want a dog that is not handler sensitive and "handler hard"? I would much rather have a dog that is handler sensitive and decoy/helper/bad guy hard. To me someone complaining about a handler sensitive dog is telling me they have poor handling and training skills. Hitting a dog over the head with a boat oar to get it to listen is somewhat Neanderthal and IMO shows a lack of skill. Don't misunderstand me, my dog better grip full and under in some cases, extreme pressure or I wouldn't own it.
Everyone has their own reasons for choosing different breeds. Agility for instance accepts many breeds for competition but if you want to win, and win consistently, we know that the Border Collie is the odds on favorite. We here in the States are learning more and more about the Malinois every day. I still remember the first one I saw almost 30 years ago, came like a rocket on the long bite. Looked like a little fox. I've had at least a dozen, probably closer to a dozen and a half German Shepherds over the years and for me, the Malinois is the best working dog for the bite sports.
Compare the demands of the work for the Malinois Korung vs. the GSD Korung, the Breed Survey, the fitness for breeding test and then tell me which is a better test? The German Shepherd breed is controlled by the almighty dollar of the show lines and to anyone who's eyes are open enough to see and admit it, it's embarrassing.
Why is it that testosterone freaks always want a dog that is not handler sensitive and "handler hard"? I would much rather have a dog that is handler sensitive and decoy/helper/bad guy hard. To me someone complaining about a handler sensitive dog is telling me they have poor handling and training skills. Hitting a dog over the head with a boat oar to get it to listen is somewhat Neanderthal and IMO shows a lack of skill. Don't misunderstand me, my dog better grip full and under in some cases, extreme pressure or I wouldn't own it.
Everyone has their own reasons for choosing different breeds. Agility for instance accepts many breeds for competition but if you want to win, and win consistently, we know that the Border Collie is the odds on favorite. We here in the States are learning more and more about the Malinois every day. I still remember the first one I saw almost 30 years ago, came like a rocket on the long bite. Looked like a little fox. I've had at least a dozen, probably closer to a dozen and a half German Shepherds over the years and for me, the Malinois is the best working dog for the bite sports.
Compare the demands of the work for the Malinois Korung vs. the GSD Korung, the Breed Survey, the fitness for breeding test and then tell me which is a better test? The German Shepherd breed is controlled by the almighty dollar of the show lines and to anyone who's eyes are open enough to see and admit it, it's embarrassing.
by yoshy on 28 January 2010 - 19:01
Why is it that testosterone freaks always want a dog that is not handler sensitive and "handler hard"? I would much rather have a dog that is handler sensitive and decoy/helper/bad guy hard.To me someone complaining about a handler sensitive dog is telling me they have poor handling and training skills. Hitting a dog over the head with a boat oar to get it to listen is somewhat Neanderthal and IMO shows a lack of skill.
I would like to comment on this statement Phil.
I think you may want to re-think that statement. There are many reasons a person may not want a handler soft dog beyond the scope of just training.
Some people want a hard dog because of testosterone yes. However those of us whom work our dogs in real tasks beyond sport/pets tend to not like handler sensitivity as much as home or sport people for many reasons.
One I have found with a lot of the dogs I have worked, handler sensitivity has derived from some other issue such as environmental issues, confidence issues, trust issues( due to improper upbringing), etc........ Therefore they have a secondary issue manifesting itself into handler sensitivity which will effect other areas as well. I have also seen it derive from too much pressure in training and other things as well. but there is a genetic dispostion side to it as well. In the interest of time i want get into it to deep.
Two on the sport field you can mask those traits. In the real world you cant when performance means the most. You cant put the dog through every scenario he will face in the real world. There is always something new.
Handler soft to a point is OK. but there becomes a point where it is detrimental to real work situations. When a dog starts keeking out when his handler is yelling across the field while on track, Or handler has to yell at decoy/ suspect and the dog releases his bite due to being soft towards dad. The real world isn't like a sport field where you say a couple words. There is normally communication needed and sometimes abrupt and loud in real working environments. Or the dog starts to second guess himself because he is doing it make dad happy instead of for himself. That one can cause issues too as that split second could be huge.
I personally like stable hard dogs with equal portions of civility and prey in protection with high hunt/ retrieves drives. I like them to be a proud dog in all circumstances as you know they are sitting on an even keel and aren't going to fold in any circumstance when you need them to preform.
As far as training goes. I train both. I own both. However a handler hard dog will let you know when your unfair just as fast and a handler soft dog will. just on opposite ends of the spectrum. Also i mention dogs developing handler softness from too much pressure to quickly in training. I do not mean force. I just mean rushed and not allowed to build confidence in the tasks. However the dogs genetically predisposed to handler hardness tends to be able to take that pressure at a faster rate. This is why the real zPS dogs are hanging off sleeves at 6 months. They develope faster and can take more pressure in training at a much quicker rate. Therefore the service time in the field is extended and trustworthy.
I would like to comment on this statement Phil.
I think you may want to re-think that statement. There are many reasons a person may not want a handler soft dog beyond the scope of just training.
Some people want a hard dog because of testosterone yes. However those of us whom work our dogs in real tasks beyond sport/pets tend to not like handler sensitivity as much as home or sport people for many reasons.
One I have found with a lot of the dogs I have worked, handler sensitivity has derived from some other issue such as environmental issues, confidence issues, trust issues( due to improper upbringing), etc........ Therefore they have a secondary issue manifesting itself into handler sensitivity which will effect other areas as well. I have also seen it derive from too much pressure in training and other things as well. but there is a genetic dispostion side to it as well. In the interest of time i want get into it to deep.
Two on the sport field you can mask those traits. In the real world you cant when performance means the most. You cant put the dog through every scenario he will face in the real world. There is always something new.
Handler soft to a point is OK. but there becomes a point where it is detrimental to real work situations. When a dog starts keeking out when his handler is yelling across the field while on track, Or handler has to yell at decoy/ suspect and the dog releases his bite due to being soft towards dad. The real world isn't like a sport field where you say a couple words. There is normally communication needed and sometimes abrupt and loud in real working environments. Or the dog starts to second guess himself because he is doing it make dad happy instead of for himself. That one can cause issues too as that split second could be huge.
I personally like stable hard dogs with equal portions of civility and prey in protection with high hunt/ retrieves drives. I like them to be a proud dog in all circumstances as you know they are sitting on an even keel and aren't going to fold in any circumstance when you need them to preform.
As far as training goes. I train both. I own both. However a handler hard dog will let you know when your unfair just as fast and a handler soft dog will. just on opposite ends of the spectrum. Also i mention dogs developing handler softness from too much pressure to quickly in training. I do not mean force. I just mean rushed and not allowed to build confidence in the tasks. However the dogs genetically predisposed to handler hardness tends to be able to take that pressure at a faster rate. This is why the real zPS dogs are hanging off sleeves at 6 months. They develope faster and can take more pressure in training at a much quicker rate. Therefore the service time in the field is extended and trustworthy.
by Slamdunc on 28 January 2010 - 21:01
Phil,
Bottom line, why is there a difference in the bite work at the Sieger Show? Why is it not the same? Are they not one breed? Do not "show" dog people insist that their dogs are "working dogs"?
I think we know the answer to this. I would suggest that the show dog people are more interested in conformation than working ability. However, there are some very good show lines that can still work well. They just aren't the VA dogs. More people need to breed to those dogs and skip the big name dogs and the reed would be better off. I know several "show line" breeders that breed beautiful GSD's that can still work and work well.
Why is it that testosterone freaks always want a dog that is not handler sensitive and "handler hard"? I would much rather have a dog that is handler sensitive and decoy/helper/bad guy hard. To me someone complaining about a handler sensitive dog is telling me they have poor handling and training skills.
I can assure you that I am not a testosterone freak. I just don't like handler sensitive dogs. I like hard, meaning resilient dogs that can take a correction or an adverse experience and bounce back quickly and not be negatively affected. I am confident in my handling skills, I just don't like some of the Mali's that I've seen in the sport world that were very handler sensitive. Because some one prefers a hard dog doesn't mean their handling skills are lacking. I could say the same about some one who prefers a handler sensitive dog. So, someone who prefers a handler sensitive dog is a trainer who needs an easy dog to work, and can't handle a strong dog? I guess that would be the case also. I want my dog to be confident and independent with the ability to work on it's own. I don't need a dog depending on me for constant approval or being nervous because I may correct it. For a sport dog doing a routine this may be ok. Yoshy put it very well, in my work I don't want a handler sensitive dog relying on me for constant direction or having any issues in a stressful situation. There is a difference between a hard dog, and a handler sensitive dog who Just takes out it's frustration on the decoy. I've seen this Mali's several times, the speed is fast but the grips are usually poor.
I really don't like the show vs working threads and I am not crazy about the Mali vs GSD threads. Each dog has it's merits and people can pick the dog that best suits their particular needs. I prefer working line GSD's, but I also appreciate a good show line dog. I also really like Mali's and Dutch Shepherds. Bottom line a good dog is a good dog and I really don't care what it looks like or what breed it is as long as it fit my needs or can perform a useful purpose.
Jim
Bottom line, why is there a difference in the bite work at the Sieger Show? Why is it not the same? Are they not one breed? Do not "show" dog people insist that their dogs are "working dogs"?
I think we know the answer to this. I would suggest that the show dog people are more interested in conformation than working ability. However, there are some very good show lines that can still work well. They just aren't the VA dogs. More people need to breed to those dogs and skip the big name dogs and the reed would be better off. I know several "show line" breeders that breed beautiful GSD's that can still work and work well.
Why is it that testosterone freaks always want a dog that is not handler sensitive and "handler hard"? I would much rather have a dog that is handler sensitive and decoy/helper/bad guy hard. To me someone complaining about a handler sensitive dog is telling me they have poor handling and training skills.
I can assure you that I am not a testosterone freak. I just don't like handler sensitive dogs. I like hard, meaning resilient dogs that can take a correction or an adverse experience and bounce back quickly and not be negatively affected. I am confident in my handling skills, I just don't like some of the Mali's that I've seen in the sport world that were very handler sensitive. Because some one prefers a hard dog doesn't mean their handling skills are lacking. I could say the same about some one who prefers a handler sensitive dog. So, someone who prefers a handler sensitive dog is a trainer who needs an easy dog to work, and can't handle a strong dog? I guess that would be the case also. I want my dog to be confident and independent with the ability to work on it's own. I don't need a dog depending on me for constant approval or being nervous because I may correct it. For a sport dog doing a routine this may be ok. Yoshy put it very well, in my work I don't want a handler sensitive dog relying on me for constant direction or having any issues in a stressful situation. There is a difference between a hard dog, and a handler sensitive dog who Just takes out it's frustration on the decoy. I've seen this Mali's several times, the speed is fast but the grips are usually poor.
I really don't like the show vs working threads and I am not crazy about the Mali vs GSD threads. Each dog has it's merits and people can pick the dog that best suits their particular needs. I prefer working line GSD's, but I also appreciate a good show line dog. I also really like Mali's and Dutch Shepherds. Bottom line a good dog is a good dog and I really don't care what it looks like or what breed it is as long as it fit my needs or can perform a useful purpose.
Jim
by Bob McKown on 28 January 2010 - 21:01
Jim:
I agree, but it,s obviously falling on deaf ears.
by Slamdunc on 28 January 2010 - 21:01
Bob,
They may not be deaf, they can only hear what they want to hear. They are obviously married and have developed that selective hearing.
Jim
They may not be deaf, they can only hear what they want to hear. They are obviously married and have developed that selective hearing.
Jim
by yoshy on 28 January 2010 - 21:01
Jim,
I was gonna stay out of this one but that statement just pissed me off man. Cant train if you dont train soft dogs. WTF?
I know your take on it and i know why. A lot of sport people will never understand as they think sport is real work. So dont sweat it.
and til the end of days it will be my dog/ breed is better or worse. you know that.
I was gonna stay out of this one but that statement just pissed me off man. Cant train if you dont train soft dogs. WTF?
I know your take on it and i know why. A lot of sport people will never understand as they think sport is real work. So dont sweat it.
and til the end of days it will be my dog/ breed is better or worse. you know that.
by Slamdunc on 28 January 2010 - 22:01
Yoshy,
I agree. Everyone has their own opinions based on their personal experiences and that is great. People are very passionate about their breed and that is terrific. I am not going to judge some one because they prefer show lines over working lines or Malis' over GSD's. They can all be great dogs and each have their own merit.
I don't see the need to argue over it, we all know our own dog is the best one in the world.
Jim
I agree. Everyone has their own opinions based on their personal experiences and that is great. People are very passionate about their breed and that is terrific. I am not going to judge some one because they prefer show lines over working lines or Malis' over GSD's. They can all be great dogs and each have their own merit.
I don't see the need to argue over it, we all know our own dog is the best one in the world.
Jim
by CrysBuck25 on 29 January 2010 - 02:01
I just have to throw in my two cent's worth...
Someone said GSDs are for everyone, Malis are only for the serious...
Somehow, from what I've heard, I surely wouldn't want to be a newbie trying to handle Jim's dog, Boomer...He's not for newbies!
That said, I am not a trainer or handler in the sports or in the working dogs, per se, not yet. But I think when I do get ready to do more with a dog, when my kids are a bit older and a touch more free time, it will be a GSD that I buy, not a mali. I don't care for the breed, and have no interest in it, though I have seen some that were good working dogs, and some that I thought were pretty.
Just the same, I won't switch breeds, I love the GSD.
Crys
Someone said GSDs are for everyone, Malis are only for the serious...
Somehow, from what I've heard, I surely wouldn't want to be a newbie trying to handle Jim's dog, Boomer...He's not for newbies!
That said, I am not a trainer or handler in the sports or in the working dogs, per se, not yet. But I think when I do get ready to do more with a dog, when my kids are a bit older and a touch more free time, it will be a GSD that I buy, not a mali. I don't care for the breed, and have no interest in it, though I have seen some that were good working dogs, and some that I thought were pretty.
Just the same, I won't switch breeds, I love the GSD.
Crys
by Held on 29 January 2010 - 16:01
Just want to clarify that a handler sensitive dog is not a dog that lacking direction or it cannot work independently,or that it is not a tough dog.Some handler sensitive dogs can rip you apart before you even know what happened to you.
A HANDLER SENSITIVE DOG ONLY MEANS THAT A DOG IS SENSITIVE TO ITS HANDLER AND HANDLER'S CORRECTIONS.
I felt i needed to say this because there seems to be some confusion in some people's minds.Have a nice one.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top