Mishandled breeding...opinions please

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by VomMarischal on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

Well, I don't know how naturally our dogs are living, period. We seem to expect animals to do their thing at OUR convenience. In a wild pack, not every dog would be breeding to begin with. I know my bitches will NOT stand for any male that is not extremely dominant, because they are extremely dominant. I think Wlpool may be onto something when she comments that it often works better if they get to choose their own mates. How natural IS forcing any two dogs to breed with each other when they might have other preferences? Can we really expect the bitch to loosen up if she isn't into it? Mine won't.

by eichenluft on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

not sure the stricture problem has to do with genetics - but I have seen it in many females over the years. ALL of them have been very difficult to breed successfully, if not impossible. So I guess "nature works" in some ways.

molly

by ShadyLady on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

It's unknown whether after he saw your girl, he decided not to breed her, but that should have been told to you when you dropped her off. Anyway, going with the assumtion that he did want to go through with the breeding, it seems to me that he should have at least done the AI. I understand that he couldn't get the breeding done naturally, but I too am confused why he didn't do the AI!

You still might have come up puppy-less, but I would have wanted the assurance that an AI was attempted, since he mentioned it. Makes no sense.

He should have gone the extra mile and proceeded like Molly wrote on her story.

Well, you can get the stricture taken care of, but having a male closer or if you are so motivated beyond a natural breeding, you can have fresh semen shipped to you when your vet pronounces that it's "breed now!" time, would be better.

All breeders need to be careful about relying too heavily on technology. There are breeds of dogs that used to be easy breeders, but now can only be AI'd. There is a Collie breeder I know that will only do natural breedings on visitiing bitches and using her stud dogs, as she trying to do her part to prevent Collies from going the route of Sheties in that way.

Thoroughbred foals that are to be registered with The Jockey Club must be conceived with live cover, but it's not just a rule.I agree with wlpool. Many stallion owners that allow them to herd breed mares, end up wtih a higher percentage of pregnant mares, than if they did an AI on every single one of them. It's been tested and pasture breeding always comes out with better results.

by Kimmelot on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

Here is my 4c's for the day then..

Is it better that real working bitches only produce 2 puppies ? Maybe her hormones are astray , but there is not a demand for a huge amount of working/drivey puppies. So if a working bitch has such defects as tipped V-jays and inverted coochies , is it still ok to breed her ? I mean she is only probably going to produce 2-3 puppies ..

But then the Show line (Am) dogs can have upward 8-14 puppies in a healthy litter.. so why are these dogs so able to be good natural breeders ?? What the heck is going on in people's breeding programs.

Sure its nice that a male dog never has to touch a female and get a germ, but if she cannot accept a male because her V-jay is not properly shapped or sized , then is it right to breed that dog via AI. What if the puppies have a hard time getting out, or its painful for her - dogs should not feel much pain durring labor.

by DDR-DSH on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

I'm inclined to agree with Kimmelot and Krazy Bout K9s. The old breed books warned us about using dogs / bitches that had any kind of reproductive problems. Strictures are exactly that.. repro problems. I'm hearing of an increasing number of these problem breeding bitches. More than ever before, it seems. You know that a lot of people are using AI, even under the table, so you're going to be picking it up through the stud dogs. If you also allow it in your bitches, you will really be compounding the problem. Something to think about.

I have a male here that I got from someone else.. nice dog, very persistent with the bitches, but didn't quite make OFA. Rather than put him down, the owner had him vasectomized for me, and he can stay with any bitches I have, to watch them for me. He's like a sort of canine eunuch, you might say. I've checked him and there are absolutely no live sperm in his reproductive tract. So, if he can tie a bitch, then for sure I know that she can and will breed naturally. Further, if I want to use frozen semen, this dog can provide a "chaser" of prostatic fluids to increase the chances of conception.. especially if we do trans-cervical AI. There are elements in the prostate fluid which assist in sperm motility (forward progression) and also the additional volume of fluid pushes the live sperm into the region of the ovaries, where fertilization should be occurring in order for implantation to happen. The natural tie produces a capillary effect, which is absent otherwise. Of course, it won't help with a stricture, but it may help me to discover if there is one, before I make plans to ship a maiden bitch (next season).

I have a couple of bitches that I got from other people who both have strictures, and they're just hanging around for awhile. I'm reluctant to push the point, really. Especially when there's better to be had, why risk perpetuating this trait? I used to think it was not such a big deal, but then I have also heard about other associated reproductive anomalies, such as a missing uterine horn, etc. Even a vet cannot see that, unless the bitch is opened up for a look. I'm a lot more skeptical about the wisdom of breeding these bitches with strictures, now.

by DDR-DSH on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

Kimmelot, I think that the American show breeders always followed the adage never to tolerate reproductive problems in their lines. So, apparently, this advice has served them well..

by Kimmelot on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

Vom Marishel Is it that your female is extremal dominate or does she have too much testosterone .. lift's her legs to pee has small litters if she does get breed etc.

I am not so sure that really hard dominance is something we want to be breeding into our bitches either. But the way bitches are raised sometimes controls how they act around a male.. A "Pet" female thinks its rude that a male dog tries to mount her- you may take this as dominace I see this as an undersocilized bitch.

I have a very dominate bitch that will stand for any dog, even a female , and she has had litters of 10, 11, and 9.

Truly for learning only why I ask.. I want to have the right thing to tell people if I ever stud my dog out and it does not work out. Its only obvious that the American dogs, vs the German working dogs have a big diffrence in litter size. I currently Guarantee 4 live puppies, and I am way- way selective on the lines I breed too because I know that a highly German breed female is likley to not get breed or only have 1-2 puppies.

by Krazy Bout K9s on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

THE STRONG SHALL SURVIVE...

NATURE AS MOTHER NATURE INTENDED...

AS IN NATURAL ....

by DDR-DSH on 11 March 2010 - 18:03

As for the bitches that always have small litters, I am now beginning to wonder if some of them also have only one uterine horn, and no one ever realizes it.. Hmmmm..

Dollar for dollar, bitches are the riskiest to buy, investment wise. They can hide a lot of secrets, inside. Anytime anyone offers a titled and Koer'd bitch, young and really nice quality, I have to wonder if there is something going on that they are not disclosing.

Recently, I've heard of someone investing somewhere around $14,000 to $15,000 dollars for two nice-looking imported titled bitches (including shipping, boarding, breeding costs), and neither one is producing anything, despite Herculean efforts to get them pregnant. It doesn't matter how nice they look, what their scores are, or what the pedigree, unless they can produce.

by DDR-DSH on 11 March 2010 - 19:03

Be careful about buying or keeping bitch puppies with very small or inverted vulvas. I think this is a possible cause for concern. If you want to talk about guarantees, ask the breeder for a guarantee that the bitch will not have reproductive abnormalities. Now, THERE's a whole new can of worms for you!

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