Breeder knowing of Hip Dysplasia - Page 2

Donald, you weren't "wrong." We're just pointing out another side. While I would not breed uncertified dogs (for the public anyway), at least this woman is HONEST. Some of the responders telling you to run bought their dogs from people who breed on prelims (or so they say they were prelim'd lol). It all comes down to trust, IMO. Trust, and  a guarantee. Personally, I would rather have a good guarantee from someone I trust than buy a dog from a person I don't trust, even if their hips are perfect! But that's just me.

Prager,

Very interesting.  I would like some more detail on the 4 identical xrays sent in 4 different times with 4 different results.

When was this done?  20 or thiry years ago?  Recently?

What were the 4 results?   Excellent Good Fair Borderline mild moderate severe - which 4?

So, that's a total of 4 x 3 radiologist panels = 12 radiologists.  Were they split decisions?  Unanimous?

The xrays have to have the identification on the film.  Either the tatoo or the microchip and other required identifying information.

Is this your personal experience or somebody else's story?   A friend of a friend?

Without more detail, it sounds like an Urban Legend?

I am curious.

Michele

Urban legend? Really? Are you so convinced of the infallibility of the OFA (comprised of humans, last I checked) that you doubt Hans' story? Why is it so hard to believe that several human opionions can change from day to day?

 I'll try to let you down easy, but  I, personally, sent in an identical xray twice and got different ratings. Additionally, an owner of a littermate to a dog I used to own did the same thing with their dog, and got different ratings as well (mild HD & good). LMAO. That about did it for me on OFA.

I read my own xrays on my own dogs, and if I decide to breed them for public sale, then I humor the public by having them certified.

So how does that work when you send in the same x-rays twice; do they then change the HD status of the existing dog in their records?

They didn't change the original rating as far as certification went. I know you are (or were) permitted to send them as many times as you wanted, but only one certification would stick, and I believe it's the first. Or they may allow the better rating to stick in the case of improvement, but if the first one is passing, I believe it sticks. This is a few years ago, but this is what I remember. I think one dog's was improved, and the other's stayed the same.

If I'm not mistaken (which I may be), it's the most recent rating, in the case of repeat evaluations, that is the one on record. 

molly

I have to say I agree with Hans & Jen about the OFA. It definately is not the be-all-end-all for hip rating. I use OFA for breeding stock, but again only because that is what joe public wants & understands.
I certainly wish there were other options available within the US. Of course one could always send the xrays out & get their a stamp.

It was years ago, but I once sent in a second set of xrays for a dog and Dr Corley called me to ask what I intended. He told me that the hips were "very good for a German Shephers" and that one hip was "good," the other "excellent." Xrays are supposed to have the dog's name, and identifying information on the film. ¶As I understand it, the films are reviewed by a panel of radiologists, so of course, one set of radiologists may well view the same xrays differently than another panel would. ¶If a breeder advertises a dog as "OFA Pending," yet has never sent in any xrays to OFA, that is a huge red flag to me. The breeder certainly gets no benefit of the doubt for any ambiguities after that.

Urban legend?

Without details, that is what it looks like..  With supporting details, maybe I would get a different impression.  That is why I asked, because I would really like to know,

Are you so convinced of the infallibility of the OFA (comprised of humans, last I checked) that you doubt Hans' story?

I never said that the OFA is infallible.  I assume that the OFA only hires human radiologists and does not use aliens or robots.  It is comprised of panels (3 to a panel) of trained radiologists acting independently. I don't know Hans personally, but I enjoy his posts and find him to be quite knowledgeable and informative. I do not have any reason to trust or not trust.   If I were not satisfied by the OFA evaluation system, I would go to SV and get an A stamp.

Why is it so hard to believe that several human opionions can change from day to day?

It is not at all hard to believe.  In order to deal with this fallibility of human opinions, a system of internal controls and procedures are devised to minimize the impact of expected falliblity.  The following is from the OFA website:
www.offa.org/faq.html#34

"34.  Since the hip and elbow evaluations are subjective, what level of consistency is there between the radiologists?
When results of 1.8 million radiographic evaluations by 45 radiologists were analyzed, it was found that all three radiologists agreed as to whether the dog should be classified as having a normal phenotype, borderline phenotype, or HD 94.9% of the time. In addition, 73.5% of the time, all three radiologists agreed on the same hip phenotype (excellent, fair, good, borderline, mild, moderate or severe). Twenty-one percent of the time, two radiologists agreed on the same hip grade and the third radiologist was within one hip grade of the other two. Two radiologists agreed on the same hip grade and the third radiologist was within two hip grades of the other two 5.4% of the time. This percentage of agreement is high considering the subjective nature of the evaluation."
 

I'll try to let you down easy, but I, personally, sent in an identical xray twice and got different ratings. Additionally, an owner of a littermate to a dog I used to own did the same thing with their dog, and got different ratings as well (mild HD & good). LMAO. That about did it for me on OFA.

I am not let down.  I don't expect perfection from anyone.  Sometimes, it seems life is filled with disappointments.

I read my own xrays on my own dogs, and if I decide to breed them for public sale, then I humor the public by having them certified.

No comment.

Michele