NATURAL INSTINCT TEST - Page 2

Yoshy well said.

Slamdunc,you are right titles are not everything and they are good for something--- i do not disagree.My problem is when titles become everything.Also i do not have any problem considering a puppy from untitled parents because when i seclect a puppy i select it on the basis of what that puppy is showing me.If the puppy is showing me the drives i want to see and showing me some mental and physical strength for its age his parents titles at that moment mean nothing because his parents' titles do not come with the puppy and has no bearing on what this puppy  would be able to achieve in the future.That is entirely based on this puppy's genetics and upbringing and quality of the training.Have a nice one.

I am currently considering a puppy from untitled parents.  However, both parents are working service dogs, have had OFA on hips/elbows and are within the physical standards.  Since I will probably do obedience/agility and need to train the dog to be a service dog, this are important characteristics.  Plus, previous progeny have worked as service dogs, titled in agility or in the show ring.  In this situation, these dogs are working dogs - police dogs do not always have titles.

I agree with others - you have to look at the big picture.

Opal

Opal,

police dogs do not always have titles.

I agree with others - you have to look at the big picture.

That is true, but they are certified and that is a title.  The certification process is not all that easy and would easily equate to a SchH title for a patrol dog.  Our certifications in my state involve tracking, obedience, aggression control (bite work), gun fire, building searching and article searches.  The dual purpose dogs have to do the detection certification as well.  With those dogs you have an idea of the temperament and working ability. 

Like other venues or sports if you are looking for a service dog go to dogs that have produced service dogs.  Genetics are really the key ingredient, that is one of the important things when evaluating a pup.  What are the parents like?  Do the perform the task that you want to do at a high level?  If you want a service dog are the parents high quality service dogs, do the produce high quality service dogs? 

There are many good police dogs out there, but few I would consider a pup from.  There are some, but for my needs of a high end sport dog or future police dog  I'm going with a high end dog that has competed at a high level.  I'm looking at high end genetics that have produced good dogs in the past.  Naturally, those dogs will be titled.

JMO,

Jim

Jim - I meant titles that show up on the pedigrees.  The dogs I am considering have certification as guide dogs, and I guess I didn't classify that as a title.  I agree that there should be some documentation of working ability, but that SchH titles may not accurately demonstrate that.

That said, my girl is working lines with titled parents, and I love her enthusiasm and temperament.  I may end up going with similar bloodlines just because she is such a great dog.  The only reasons she doesn't have a title are: 1. her original owner literally let her run wild and returned her to the breeder for being "aggressive" and 2. my ability as a trainer is far below her ability to learn.  It's a work in progress. :)  We've had to spend a good deal of time unlearning bad habits.  Her "aggressiveness" is really prey drive and dominance.  We've had a lot of help from good trainers to get where we are.

Opal

Opal,
Jim - I meant titles that show up on the pedigrees. The dogs I am considering have certification as guide dogs, and I guess I didn't classify that as a title. I agree that there should be some documentation of working ability, but that SchH titles may not accurately demonstrate that.

I agree with you, SchH titles are not the only representation of working ability.  If I wanted a service dog or thereapy dog, those certifications would mean something to me as well.  

Regarding your dog, you wrote:

Her "aggressiveness" is really prey drive and dominance. We've had a lot of help from good trainers to get where we are.

That's awesome that you recognize this and are working with some people.  Good luck with your dog.

Jim

LOL.... Prager.... maybe it is that english is my second language as well, but I am reading a totally different and rather humorus sense into that statement: Titles on the sire and dam are nice, but if they cant stand each other, then there will be no tie and no pups.   (all the other natural instincts you test for when they were pups)

All of the dogs that I currently have come from titled parents, but truthfully the title wasn't the reason i got the dog. Actually, I have two sets of dogs right now...the titled dogs that i market to sport people, SAR, service work, etc. Then I have two untitled females that their litters are geared to providing dogs for police officers and eventually police work. But the pedigree is more important to me than the title and the pick of the litter is also very important. I'm not knocking titles, I just don't factor them into a decision to procure a dog.

You are right, Hans. A SCHH title is not enough anymore. What once was thought of as a breed capability test, has become a highly competitive sport. But every test one will invent will eventual be standarized and that means that one is able to train for it. PS was so good because everything was in a strict managed setting and therefore environmental influences and training were able to be controlled to a point that you could specificly test for instincts and temperament. It will be difficult to implement anything like that today.

Well years ago when I lived in IL and was close to Chicago me and a few friends would take our dogs to the city.At the time I didn't have a pup but i took my dog anyway....but the others took pups that were about 4 mo at the most.They didn't really know any formal obedience just how to walk on a leash.We walked them up and down the roads with all the hussle and bussle of the city life and had them jumping on things and going under things(like park benches statues up and down the subway stairs etc) just to see how they were and if they had fears.They all were able to cope with the craziness of the noises,people(some crazy ones too), cars,the huge vents that are in the sidewalks and everything else that the city of Chicago has to offer.Yes even the wind since it was in November. I would say that was a good test of their natural instincts.
Was for us!!
~L~