Chance Mapet - protection 4 months - Page 1

Father: Hasan Ja Na Ka

Mather: Fiona Mapet

I like the dog but not the training. I don't think the whip should be used at all except to stimulate drive in obedience. There is never going to be a whip in an IGP trial, any other sport or in police or PP work. The decoy is begging the pup to bite too much with excessive prey movements by the decoy and the prey object. Again, in a trial, police work or PP, the bad guy isn't likely to be bouncing around. He might flee, but a good dog should have enough prey that there is no need to imprint for a fleeing perp. I also don't like the pulling. I understand that many IGP trainers prefer pulling because it sets the grip and can result in more points, but I believe a pushing grip teaches a dog how to fight. But if you are trying to create a top IGP dog, I understand your wanting the pup to pull.

I really enjoyed watching the video.  It is always a pleasure to watch good training, especially on the youngsters.  The decoy had good skill and a read on the puppy.  It takes only a few seconds to see this is not his first rodeo.  But I was equally as impressed with the handler.  Many times as a helper you are spending time telling the handler what to do or what not to do.  By the time the communication gap is filled, there is a missed time for learning.  This handler was in sink with her helper and reading the dog as well.  Good teamwork.  She was not just a post holding the leash.  BTW if you are handling the dog and your helper says, just be a post.  It’s the helper’s nice way of saying don’t do anything to screw this up. 

I especially like the little things like when the helper loaded (stressed) the pup and the handler allowed the puppy to move forward on the helper’s position to counter the stress from the whip.   This encourages the puppy early on to use his power to advance.   The reinforcement for moving forward was spot on.  Not just on the bite, but the helper’s body position and attitude.  It’s easy to forget that when a puppy or any dog for that matter is able to reduce or eliminate the threat he is reinforcing his own behavior.  Just the helper’s change of position and/or attitude (stree on vs stress off) creates victory in the dog, not just the bite is a reinforcing act.  Timing is important and the decoy could not have been more correct.  In other words, this helper is applying small increments of pressure to the dog.  When the dog counters the stress, the helper wishes to reinforce that behavior so he turns off stress (change of position or attitude) and rewards the puppy in prey.  This is why the bite tug comes to life for the puppy.  This is basic puppy helper work 101.  Nice work and a nice pup with good blood to boot.

There is not much more that I would add to Apple's comments , all of them are 100% spot on and exactly what I have stated too , with the only of exception and to vehemently emphasize : get the whip the hell put of the helper's hands !

The pup in the first few moments showed great promise and potential . Phenomenal in appearance , presentation , emotion , mood , thought , and action . Going forward , ears up nice [ comfortable and relaxed in mind and body ] .. then you had to much movement as described by Apple and the pup's whole demeaner changed. This is llike life , just because a person is capable of saying and doing something does not mean the person should say or do that something .

The pup should not be placed in the postion and asked to do something at this age yet at 4 months .. that is 20 weeks...Heavens give a little time for that pup , any pup at that matter , to grow and to mature mentally , emotionally , psychologically , physically . Do you not understand that the whip does not serve ONLY as a stimulation but also as , depending the handling of it , a THREAT ? When I had a pup at this age with this potential , one two passes of a rag, that is all , and let the pup in for a bite . And even at 4 months a pup of this nature with this incredble potential I would still be working on a flirt pole . Can some dogs at this age be worked with a man/rag , perhaps. But my point is: even if it can be done , then why ? Just why work the dog that way - [every gesture , movement with a dog that I do is with a purpose to teach or bring out something in the dog- it is never ever haphazard.]... I can accomplish much with a rag on a pole :  one pass [ little prey / stimulation ] and the pup is in for the bite right onto me as I drag the rag on a pole onto my body . NO threat*** involed in that. As APPLE so rightly states : It has to have the right amount / quantity and the right quality in rag/article  presentation . There fore Omwork a pup : one /two article passes , and onto the body and body contact while the dog bites  .

One feature in regards to the helper .. he may be new so I go lightly on him ...My post is not directly aimed at him .  But I still see very expereinced helpers , 30 years experience , that still work dogs poorly and with the whip and cause problems / issues . So help me If I ever had an experienced heper work dog like that , I take that whip and wrap around his head so dam fast he wouldn't know what hit him . Then I would say ? How dog you feel , and ... what do you think the dog /puppy is feeling ? Again this helper may be a bit inexperinced so I cut him slack and don't direct that statement directly to him... My intention is to have people , if they see their dog worked like this , immediately stop the session , right then and there , and leave with your dog .
 

You see the pup pulling even more when the decoy feigns a stick hit. Some dogs, many GSDs, probably are genetically predisposed to pulling because it is selected for since IGP is the sport of choice for the breed. But it is also reinforced and can be 100% learned. When you see the pup pulling harder with the feigned stick hits, that suggests to me the pup is becoming more stressed and pulling is an increment of flight. The pup is pulling away from the threat in case he needs to flee if he gets overwhelmed. Forward aggression is more confident and that is why I say a pushing bite teaches a dog how to fight along with other things that need to be trained. This is where you can see the influence of schH/IGP on selection and how the result is a different gene pool. As an alternative, KNPV Mals and DS's are taught a pushing bite. Being a suit sport supports that kind of bite and you tend to see how selection in breeding results in genetics of those dogs tending to have a predisposition toward a pushing bite. So you can see how different sports effect selection and genetics producing different traits in dogs, arguably with some traits being more desirable than others for real work rather than just sport. I think the whip is uised so much in IGP nbecause of the demands of the bark and hold and decoys want to imprint barking in the dog at an early age. Again, this is for a performance, as a B&H is going by the wayside in police work.

Apple
Nice commentary for those that want to learn .

I want to elaborate on my last post. Some dogs pull away as you described quite well, but I want to add : some dogs pull away because they have a problem , and several reasons can account for this problem , with body space. One reason plays into what Apple said : that being away from an opponent is a step ahead of fleeing if need be... and why would a dog take the measure to prepare to flee ? For one reason , not being comfortable in ' body space '. Being in very very close body space , or actually even having slight contact on the body causes for many dogs stress. Pulling away , is not entirely being combative. How can I liken this : a person can pull on a shirt sleeve , which might give that person a kind of control , but that person causes no harm to that person being held nor does it signify the intent to do more serious injury to that person .

Apple is right when he talks about the bent or a predispostion of this pulling due to the breeding purposes and that pulling also can be a learned behavior. So , I hope this comment throws more light onto my description of teaching pups or young dogs right at the begining of foundation, to not be conditioned through over stimulation , but rather to bite with little stimulation and to let the dog go into and onto the person for the bite. Even a 9 weeks , 10 week old pup I do this . They never ever develop ' body space' issues . I take away any and all reasons for them to ever have a 'body space' issue. To explain further , as the pup makes the initial contact and bite I give the pup the feeling that it actually is pushing me back and is hurting me by taking a step backwards whinning . As a rule ... I never give a dog a bite unless it is moving forward into and onto me.

Now , I never ever use a whip to teach bark and hold. Listen , it is not hard to get a dog to bark . Sometimes I would do this [ there are other way to teach this too ]: I put a 10 week pup in the kennel run . Let the dog see a rag on the flirt pole . Either the rag is still or I gave it a little split second wiggle with intention to get the dog to bark . So after a while the dog starts to associate bark , rag moves. Now a good problem solving dog figures this out and as a good thinking dog does , it will anticipate. Meaning if the rag does not move it will bark thinking it will move . And that is what happens . Pup barks , rag wiggles, then it stops ... Pup barks again rag moves. After a couple of repititions I did the same but now I am holding the kennel door closed , dog barks , rag moves and immediately I open the kennel door to let the dog out for a bite and it gets 1 good bite and I let the dog run with the rag on the pole... etc etc... Sometimes I did this and after a few reps as I opened the door and I slid the rag right up onto my my leg and l let the dog bite while contacting me on my leg . The message to the pup : if you bark bark bark , you bite the rag [ on me ] . Why things have to be taught to a dog with so much pressure and whips I fail to understand ... I teach dogs .. I do not work them .. I teach them ..

As Apple states .. forward aggression builds a hell of a lot of confidence and teaches the dog to fight/ to be combative /to be proactive / to control . So doesn't a pup biting on you tremendously empower that dog , this does not only give the dog confidence. A side note : years ago when I switched to RingSports , I veered to teaching a silent guard and hold... because to me that bark /hold is so much a waste of an animal's energy [ that is a personal bias] . To me teaching a pulling bite in a dog is likened to teaching a young man to jab , instead teaching him an accurate one time takeout punch ...Useless and foolish at that , a jab or pulling bite is.. ... But that is my opinion..

In line with your body space comments and a pushing bite, my bias is that protection sports that expect a bicep bite are better for assessing dogs, such as KNPV or PSA. I have heard some argue that pulling is natural when a predator captures its prey and pulls the prey off its feet, but I don't think is a useful explanation for pulling being desirable because often that type of attack involves multiple predators attacking its prey and it still supports the idea that if things get hairy, the animal is in a better position to flee. With a pushing bite on a bicep or leg bite, as the dog gains experience, maturity and confidence, and more pressure is added, the dog learns to turn the pressure off by pushing and the decoy reacting by decreasing the pressure, which is usually based on body language. Regarding a silent guard, barking can tell you something about a dog's character, but in sport, it is almost exclusively a taught behavior. A nice rhythmic, strong bark may be an indication of strong active aggression, but you can determine that in other ways and I agree that it can be a waste of energy and is mostly for show. A police bark and hold is something entirely different, where the dogs learns if he gets within striking distance of the bad guy, he could get hurt and I don't think many departments use it today. I know one person who used to come here for discussion criticized the bicep bite because it puts the dog in harm's way because the dog is so close to the bad guy where the dog could be seriously injured. I don't disagree with that notion, but think the value of sport should be to select dogs for breeding that are likely capable of real man work. So if the genetics are there for confidence with close body contact and two dogs are breed, their offspring could be suitable for police work and don't have to taught a bicep bite, but I also believe a dog should be taught targeting various parts of the body in police dogs including the bicep because then the dog doesn't have to think/hesitate and he learns to bite areas that he is likely to get the most secure grip on, adding to his confidence of dominating the man. I know many PP trainers have different opinions, but don't see a great need or utility for PP dogs. They are probable most useful in buying you some time to get to your gun.

Apple/Centurion. You have any videos of you training 4-6mo old puppy's?

Centurian DID SAY he would not start a puppy that young, and that with a pup of such tender months the most he'd be doing is teasing with rag, so it isn't that likely he has such a video, is it ? I must say that although I usually appreciate Denis 's training vids, I don't know enough about it to say whether you should use a whip with an absolute beginner; I'll leave the experts to wrangle that question. I DO think this is the youngest pup I can recall Denis putting up here.

I enjoy the Denis videos.  His team has a nice system.  He has a youtube channel (I think that’s what it’s called) with more videos that has some of the dogs at different stages.  I especially like the videos where he travels to different countries to do his seminars.  It is chance to see what other dogs are doing from different parts of the world and he captures the trip (scenery) very well too.   

Hundmutter, Denis starts the puppies on rag when very little and then moves the pups along based upon their individual merits.  Reading the dog, as us old timers would say. 

For those interested in seeing some of his dogs you can scan through his youtube channel .

https://www.youtube.com/user/DeniSoldan2/videos