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by Sunsilver on 23 November 2013 - 13:11
Anyone else watch this show? http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/a-dogs-life
What do you think of the section of the program where they challenged the dominance theory of behaviour?
I thought the dog that was mounting the pitbull type dog was a bratty youngster, and the pitty was putting up with him, while still maintaining a very rigid posture that said "I'm the alpha, and you know it! I'm just tolerating your behaviour because you're too young to know any better!"
I think it's possible people may be led to throw the baby out with the bathwater when they read/hear stuff like this, especially if they are new to dogs, and don't know how to read canine body language. Then, when fights break out, they are totally clueless as to what went wrong, and why, and are likely to have their dog(s) put to sleep without trying to fix the problem.
What do you think?
What do you think of the section of the program where they challenged the dominance theory of behaviour?
I thought the dog that was mounting the pitbull type dog was a bratty youngster, and the pitty was putting up with him, while still maintaining a very rigid posture that said "I'm the alpha, and you know it! I'm just tolerating your behaviour because you're too young to know any better!"
I think it's possible people may be led to throw the baby out with the bathwater when they read/hear stuff like this, especially if they are new to dogs, and don't know how to read canine body language. Then, when fights break out, they are totally clueless as to what went wrong, and why, and are likely to have their dog(s) put to sleep without trying to fix the problem.
What do you think?
by Hundmutter on 23 November 2013 - 14:11
I think you are right. [Although I should say I have not seen that programme].
IMO it's really almost impossible to teach canine body language to anyone
who does not already have at least SOME significant contact with dogs.
Books alone can't do it, (though some think they can); and even with visual
aids such as videos, it can still be too easily misunderstood. Particularly if
those visual aids are made by e.g. TV crews who are themselves without the
necessary knowledge and experience.
Which means there are some stonkingly good videos around, made by people
who are real Trainers etc, and an awful lot of not-so-well-made, 'pop' ones that
are next to useless. As there's no 'Board of Quality Control' for them, guess we
just have to go on working round that !
IMO it's really almost impossible to teach canine body language to anyone
who does not already have at least SOME significant contact with dogs.
Books alone can't do it, (though some think they can); and even with visual
aids such as videos, it can still be too easily misunderstood. Particularly if
those visual aids are made by e.g. TV crews who are themselves without the
necessary knowledge and experience.
Which means there are some stonkingly good videos around, made by people
who are real Trainers etc, and an awful lot of not-so-well-made, 'pop' ones that
are next to useless. As there's no 'Board of Quality Control' for them, guess we
just have to go on working round that !
by Sunsilver on 23 November 2013 - 14:11
The video in question showed the smaller dog rolling on its back in total submission, while the pit-type dog sniffed its genitals. Then, a short time later, the little fuzzy mutt mounted the other dog, and started humping!
I am currently studying a 400 page book on dog aggression. The chapter I was reading today talks about aggression between dogs in the same household, and how it can develop over time, as dogs either get to know one another, mature sexually, or something changes the pack structure. It's all very much determined by the dog's rank, or desire to challenge those above it in rank. She cited one instance where she had 2 younger males along with an elderly male. He was the alpha, but not in a way that was obvious. Then, he died, and the younger males began fighting with each other and could no longer be trusted together.
She also talks about early on in her breeding/dog owning career when her 2 female fox terriers had a death lock on each other. She finally had to fill the tub with water, and submerge them both in it, and hope they let go of each other before they drowned! Luckily she was strong enough to lift both dogs together!
She says that today this would not have happened, because she would have noticed the subtle signals leading up to it.
Your average joe has NO clue what to look for. Even me, with 20 years of dog owning experience, has a hard time seeing the subtle shift in body language that happens with my dog-aggressive female. She will go from open mouth to closed mouth, then LUNGE in a matter of a few seconds.
I am currently studying a 400 page book on dog aggression. The chapter I was reading today talks about aggression between dogs in the same household, and how it can develop over time, as dogs either get to know one another, mature sexually, or something changes the pack structure. It's all very much determined by the dog's rank, or desire to challenge those above it in rank. She cited one instance where she had 2 younger males along with an elderly male. He was the alpha, but not in a way that was obvious. Then, he died, and the younger males began fighting with each other and could no longer be trusted together.
She also talks about early on in her breeding/dog owning career when her 2 female fox terriers had a death lock on each other. She finally had to fill the tub with water, and submerge them both in it, and hope they let go of each other before they drowned! Luckily she was strong enough to lift both dogs together!
She says that today this would not have happened, because she would have noticed the subtle signals leading up to it.
Your average joe has NO clue what to look for. Even me, with 20 years of dog owning experience, has a hard time seeing the subtle shift in body language that happens with my dog-aggressive female. She will go from open mouth to closed mouth, then LUNGE in a matter of a few seconds.
by Hundmutter on 24 November 2013 - 04:11
Yeah, think how much you are learning from Gracie !
Seriously, I reckon we all learn much from the 'difficult'
dogs, even when they are a POTA to deal with on a daily
basis. Would not have been without my Vida, despite
what a cow she could be. Conversely, also would not
have passed up on Taz as an 'experience', even though
my happy-chappy, over energized lad has always been
wasted on me as I did not have facilities/opportunities to
work him as I should have. Too arthritic now to go for a next
dream pup and do all those things - but I can try to pass
some of the experience on.
Sounds like a good and interesting book SS, what's it called
& who by ?
Seriously, I reckon we all learn much from the 'difficult'
dogs, even when they are a POTA to deal with on a daily
basis. Would not have been without my Vida, despite
what a cow she could be. Conversely, also would not
have passed up on Taz as an 'experience', even though
my happy-chappy, over energized lad has always been
wasted on me as I did not have facilities/opportunities to
work him as I should have. Too arthritic now to go for a next
dream pup and do all those things - but I can try to pass
some of the experience on.
Sounds like a good and interesting book SS, what's it called
& who by ?
by Sunsilver on 24 November 2013 - 09:11
Aggression in Dogs, by Brenda Aloff. It's not cheap to buy, but I downloaded the Kindle version for $14 Canadian. Hexe recommended it.
by Hundmutter on 24 November 2013 - 12:11
I'll see if I can run down a copy. Thanks.
by Two Moons on 24 November 2013 - 14:11
What do I think?
I think nothing is simply black or white, there are exceptions to every rule.
I think to know you must observe and take each as an individual situation differently.
There is a lot of great information out there, but it boils down one size does not fit all.
I think it takes time and observation, and enough sense to figure it out..experience.
I think nothing is simply black or white, there are exceptions to every rule.
I think to know you must observe and take each as an individual situation differently.
There is a lot of great information out there, but it boils down one size does not fit all.
I think it takes time and observation, and enough sense to figure it out..experience.
by Jeffs on 25 November 2013 - 17:11
It really gets fun when a dog has multiple issues - dominance issues with another dog in the home and fear aggression on the street. Both are probably due to the dog just not being stable. And both my dogs are Fox Terriers. The problem with filling up the bathtub before dumping the dogs in is having to listen to one of the dogs scream for the entire length of time. Breaking up dog fights is so much fun, particularly when you are alone.
I was told at Jack Russell events they usually have a kiddie pool filled with water so they can toss in dogs that have locked up.
I was told at Jack Russell events they usually have a kiddie pool filled with water so they can toss in dogs that have locked up.
by Dawulf on 25 November 2013 - 17:11
Learning dogs' body language is something you have to learn in person, IMO. While I am against taking my own dog to dog parks, it is interesting to me, when I tag along with a friend and their dog, to watch the dogs communicate with each other. Every time a new dog enters, you get those few dogs who come over to check out the new guy, they sort out their rank and then everything is happy-happy again (usually). There is also, about half an hour away from here, a wildlife park that has a pack of wolves. Earlier this year they introduced a new alpha pair, and I would go up there for hours on end, and hang out with my camera just to watch them interact and continue to sort things out... It is so cool to be able to watch the behavior of wolves, and be able to compare it to dogs. It goes to show you that they really are not all that different. I'm sure the keepers there think I'm crazy. :)
I also kinda found it cool that I was "accepted" by the alphas... they were very shy of people when they were first introduced, but I guess I hung out enough that they got used to me. If anyone else came up that way they'd run and hide, but if it was just me they'd come right up to the fence and hang out. Made for some damned killer pictures!
This 'spat' happened about 5 feet away from me... So cool to watch them interact.... love my wolves!
I also kinda found it cool that I was "accepted" by the alphas... they were very shy of people when they were first introduced, but I guess I hung out enough that they got used to me. If anyone else came up that way they'd run and hide, but if it was just me they'd come right up to the fence and hang out. Made for some damned killer pictures!
This 'spat' happened about 5 feet away from me... So cool to watch them interact.... love my wolves!
by Sunsilver on 26 November 2013 - 14:11
Jeffs, fox terriers have prey drive in spades, and are often aggressive with other dogs. People on this board who breed and have kept multiple dogs over the years will tell you fights ARE going to happen, and it has everything to do with pack structure, and very little to do with the dog being unstable!
Not all dogs have the temperament of a golden retriever. Heck, I know a couple of Shiloh owners (Shilohs are supposed to be couch potatoes, right?
) whose bitches have become quite aggressive after having puppies. In the one case, the female killed 2 small dogs, and in the other, two bitches got into a fight, and the one ripped the other's belly open until her intestines were hanging out! (Both females survived, but putting them back together was VERY expensive!
Pack structure exists, and owners who don't learn about it are going to have to learn the hard way at some point!
Not all dogs have the temperament of a golden retriever. Heck, I know a couple of Shiloh owners (Shilohs are supposed to be couch potatoes, right?
) whose bitches have become quite aggressive after having puppies. In the one case, the female killed 2 small dogs, and in the other, two bitches got into a fight, and the one ripped the other's belly open until her intestines were hanging out! (Both females survived, but putting them back together was VERY expensive! Pack structure exists, and owners who don't learn about it are going to have to learn the hard way at some point!
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