compulsion training - Page 1

After you train a dog using positive methods like food or ball rewards when the dog already knows it well do any of you move onto compulsion training with the prong if the dog dog doesnt perform for you?

I sure do , teaching an exercise is one thing , making them do it when I tell them to is another  , balance between pleasure and pressure

so one of either is bad ? best is to mix a combination u think?


i am having a lot of trouble with the down command like while heeling i slow down putting her in the down verbally seems to be hard even tho she knows the command well  

i am having a lot of trouble with the down command like while heeling i slow down putting her in the down verbally seems to be hard even tho she knows the command well  

Perhaps she doesn't know the command that well then.  Basically, you teach the dog motivationally and positively.  Once the dog understands the command and knows the command the dog gets 2 seconds to perform the command.  If the dog understands the command and decides not to do it, that is disobedience.  I do not repeat commands, I will make the dog perform the action. 


If you teach the dog the command and use the appropriate rewards and praise this should not be an issue.  It is black and white and you must be very consistent. 
 

Jim

One way you can teach your dog the meaning of down and it must know what the word means verbally so try this.
 Sit down on the grass and stretch your left leg out in front of you but with the knee bent so a gap is there your dog will be sitting next to you on your left side, Use a ball the other side of your leg and tell the dog to down give him a light nick on the leash with your left hand 6'' from the collar  to get him to go down and move the ball away from him so the dog is laying down underneath your leg you give the command to down before you nick the leash this way you can teach the meaning of the word 'down' with the down it will work after a few times doing it, when the dog is down underneath your leg give him the ball
When you get to the walking stage after the dog knows the command, when you want him to down 'STOP' put your left leg out in front of you stretched, then tell the dog to down this way he will down in a straight postition and not sideways because he will be downing in line with your leg. Keep repeating the bits until the dog knows the real meaning of the word 'Down' before asking him to down at a walking pace. NEVER EVER force the dog to go Down hold the leash 6'' from the collar and give a very light nick downwards with the verbal command.
Steve1

destiny .. this is a good thread for many people in addition to your self .. what i have been preaching lately on this forum is " many people think thery are training ,[so called] positively [in methodology ] and it is NOT TRUE MOTIVATION !! i cannot stand these gurus that promote this in the sense that true motivation is not explained as it should be .. true motivation is not merely a positive reward for the behavior !! i am not going into a seminar here . but for the people trying to learn .. true motivation results in a dog that wants to act/perform / behave in such a manner it can't wait to hear your voice and it avctually promotes that cue ! [ there are at least 5 criteria that needs to be accomplished for Pos .training]. that is to say for you specifically .. your dog should annoy you so much to get permission / hear the command that you get so sick of it [ figuratively speaking] that you can't wait to utter the word 'down'and have the dog down  !! most likely what  is you have taught : you down [ when you feel like it]  meaning the dog will down only when it percieves that there is immenent a ball or food . THAT IS NOT positive training . Now i wish to qualify here .. i am assuming that you have taught the dog to down anywhere , anyplace,  anytime .. i am assuming you made a transition from a static down .. towards teaching the dog with paired motion so that the dogs understands this concept[motion-down]  .. a static and a dynamic [ motion ] are two different contexts /outlooks /exercises in the canine minds .. they are two different downs / last qualifier.. what is the temperamnet of the dog ???  i am assuming there are no developmental or temperament flaws too . for example you will hear Rotties grunt when asked to down .. like a growl , not uncommon .. you would think this is a protest .. many are naturally strong willed .. so training has to be tailored to the temperamnt of the dog ..  look at what you taught  in retrospect.. now even as i wrote on another present thread ... you will always need an enforcer to keep the dog honest with training ... as i wrote , even a soft ,whispered spoken "NO" is at times enough to enforce your request/command or a light finger tap to the whithers .. [ a positive- negative reinforcement].  ying &yang .. postive /neagative go hand in hand

steve quick question why never force a dog in a down?

As I've said before, I like reading this section, so many great tips. Alphapup, I really appreciate your insight, I was quietly feeling like an ogre because I don't like the treats/toy method. I tried talking to the trainer at puppy school about it without being confrontational or acting like I'm critical of her but I felt like she couldn't understand my point. I get that treats/toys can be great and tend to have faster results than me using my adult dog to motivate my pup, I just never felt like she gets why I prefer my boys to WANT to do things I ask because I'm asking. I don't feel like I'm mean to my dogs in any way. Even as a little pup he is very motivated by praise... a quiet touch on his head and the tail is wagging. I'm sure I make mistakes and I do not mind asking for help or reading a post like Steve1's and seeing a different way to teach something and I appreciate all the tips and advice so many willing offer. Reading some of your posts makes me feel better about my thinking because I was questioning why I felt so strongly about avoiding treats/toys if possible. I realize not everyone has an older dog to help with training. Thanks, Jennifer

Simple
How can a Dog learn something good or what you want from it by force, If a dog does not know what is expected of it how can it perform it.
Once the dog knows the word and does it time and time again then if it refuses to obey then it can be given a strong correction, but you cannot strongly correct what the dog does not know in the first place
Steve1
By the way are you pulling my Wire by asking that question

oh no steve i misread i was assuming you meant never force a down even when the dog knows it well