compulsion training - Page 3

without some kind f food reward or something she is not very interested in it though because up until this point everything has been positive
 

This will probably come across much harsher than I intend it but...
That actually reads as, up until this point, everything has been bribery.

The dog shouldn't know whether or not food is involved.  The dog performs the command correctly, then the reward is produced.
You gradually increase the duration between the event and the reward.  You can't go from food clearly visable in your hand, to no food at all, and expect the dog to devine that you're still playing the same game when you've completely replaced the board and all the peices.

That's not noncompliance, it's genuine confusion on the part of the dog.

This video is a horrible example of our down out of motion...  all the yawning and licking make it look like compulsion was used.
In truth, there was a good three inches of standing water on the field, and she wasn't particularly happy about downing in it.  [You can see how muddy by boots are at the end of the video]

Anyway...

She was re-taught down on an elevated platform [bench/table/etc], to get her dropping straight down onto her elbows and without throwing a hip out.
A dog on a narrow bench has to stay straight to stay on the bench.

Once that was consistent, it moved back to the flat.

Once that was consistent, it was introduced while just walking around, not at a heel.

Once that was consistent, it was taught with one or two steps of heeling, and a down.

Once that was consistent, three or four steps.

After that it was presumed that the command and the generalization of the command, had been learned.
This is probably the only command I've never had to proof with her- she drops fast and sticks.  If only all her other commands were this solid. 

jenn .. yes different stroke for different folk .. yes .. diifferent ways to interact/communicate/ teach different dogs .. the is the key to a great trainer ... IMO a super trainer can solve problems ... the extraoridnary trainer becomes the dog / fets into the mind and heart of the dog / understand the dog , such that .. errors / mistakes are avioided . JUST IMO ..
            2. i like what your thread is about because whethewr oe uses food / toys  / non-ffod methods .. is not the issue i take ... : the plstform i take is " with any/all methods YOU ... YOU yourself ,  amnifestation of the human /canine rtelationship that underlies everything . even POS  training ... the dog has to come to respect you , see you as a [dog] leader ready and willing to follow the oreder fopr the survival of the pack !!many people rely on food/toys even leashes ,  but miss this point. then in the dog's outlook [ please give them acknowledgement they are intelligent / and they can /do think /feel] when none of those tools are present .. they cant get OB  from the dog .
           3. so is replt _ 'trick' ... there is no trick ... again you have to get into the mind of the dog ... in simplicity i look for : what does the dog and owner needs.. make the needs mutual , what is the dog feeling , what is the dog thinking/ how do i get it to think in terms of what i want it to ..  for example .. i can teach the fundamental of telling a dog to leave something in a matter of less than a minute. the gist is a representation of i described above -- ? how do i communicate to the dog that when i say leave it , i want the dog to leave it .[ there are numerous ways to do this /mehtodologies]  simple .. i put something in my hand , even a piece of ham .. i put it to the dog's nose .. as the dog inspects it and maybe tries to grab it . i close my hand and at the same time , calmly , self assured , relaxed in normal voice say " leave it" ... now i know the dog needs to eat , i do to .. if the dog leaves it i will say good boy , right choice and offer it a piece of roast beef./ dog's learn through association and repition .. so i told my dog , listen to me , trust me , i understand your need and TOGETHER we will fulfill our needs .now the dog comes to understand , when i say to him leave it , it is in and our interest. if he doesn't learn .. he will ..next timer i say leave it and he doesn't , he will realize the httest , most mouth burning pepper greeted him .. so dog , next time tyhink again .. when i say leave it .. trust me , leave it.  i do this no collar , no leash .. but if the dog strays i either help make it correct in choice and or i will use my body language /or voice to do that and later [ when the lesson is taught inside out] my voice and body language [ ok to use a leash here to ]  will not so much correct the dog but rather , i will assert myself [ dsiscipline]  because that is what leades do . the leader , a boss at work , ochsestrates ..  , watch wolves !! watch a pack of dogs. there are not 'tricks' .. like the onset of wolves and humans ... how is it that they formed a relationship , and they learned to work in unision ?? THEY FORMED an UNDERSTANDING and A RELATIONSHIP- they survived together.  !!! their goals to survival became me one and the same .. maybe i am a little different than other owners .. but think about that .. you are just another dog[ in respects that is]  . again get into the mind of the dog .. there are no tricks ..just setr the dog up to be correct and teach him , as a leader , the choices to be made are in his and your interest.

Great explanation, very clear and I will definitely use that information as I go along! Once things are explained so clearly I feel a little silly asking, lol! Thank you so much, Jennifer

jenn. so so sorry for the deplorable writing . i have had some vey intensive operations that make it hard to type .. so sorry - i hope i at least make my ponts .. AP

AP, very clear, easy to understand and great insight for someone so inexperienced as myself , no apologies needed. I appreciate your time and willingness to explain things, Jennifer

hey jen the more i read the more horrible mistake i made with getting this trainer that ONLY Does compulsion i think i am going to bail out on them the compulsion only method just seems wrong even sport people and police officers in these thread seems to have realistic normal training methods rather then sitting on your dog to make it down or jerking its prong making it down fast out of fear of getting another correction.


if i cant get my money back oh well



i am doing it the right way by following instructions from earlier on this thread getting results specially with the left leg method  

Destiny4u, don't be hard on yourself, the fact that you want to try and do something different that will work better for your dog shows you care. Maybe you can talk to your trainer and ask if they are willing to try different methods... maybe they will. So many of the posters have a ton of experience and are really nice and constructive in their willingness to offer help and different ideas. I do not remember who posted this on a different thread but I read where someone said something along the lines.. from the time the puppy comes home, I make sure he/she knows everything comes from me, food, unconditional love, play, etc. There was more to the post but I imagine that goes a long way in building a close bond which would help in getting a dog to want to please the person. You start a lot of good threads for training and because you have a willingness to learn and question, I think you and your dog are probably going to be just fine, just keep moving forward... Jen

destiny .. yes .. do not be hard on yourself .. i keep in mind .. there was a day one , where i first held a  leash not knowing one iota about , teaching a dog .. we all grow .. -- a point for you sitting on a dog to down it .. teaches this ... when a dog is sat on it downs .. and for somew dogs .. [ if that is practical anyway] , what happens if you can't sit on it when it won't down >> ?? yes .. find  a nice group of people that are dog enthusiatists to work with .. and you need not spend a lot of money ... which opens the door for me to say this ! SHAME , SHAME , SHAME on you shutzhund clubs . i was active in French Ring .. you dam folks for making this such a business .. it cost me a [ if i wanted a leash harness for agitation , that expense ] and $50.oo a year , and also $50 .00 registration yearly For NARA [north american ring association dues]. as goup memebers we shared a very very small cost for sleeves . bite suites and tugs that lasted us over a decade !!  blast you for changing this sport into a money mongering entity - and the politicikng that goes on in SchUSA , GSDFCA-WDA, the dues and all -for what ??  !! when people could go out , and maybe for a nominal fee just plain ol' enjoy thenselves with their dog- if someone just had the heart to help others along !! . to simply have fun &  better the human /canine relationship.. enjoy themsleves .. come on $25 to $50 . a session , that is for 1 session   1 session to interact with your dog ??? .. figure how many sessions  ?? at least , if not more ..you spend $2000.oo - $25000.oo = to tiltle a dog or just to go and have fun ?  you gotta be kidding me !! no wonder so many people have the need to come to this forum for advice . i don't blame them .. no wonder this country is so behind the times compared to europe !!.. IMO , you folks out to be ashamed of yourselves .. that is just a bad as a backyard dog trainer jumping on a dog to down it ..  fleecing people in a class . !! and IMO i value Sch , very much so .. but believe me .. compared to other  dog sports ,  financially  [figuratively speaking] it 's laughable !!

he is also my dogs personal protection trainer he totally mislead me before i sgined a contract with him


first lesson OB was all COMPULSION nothing else protection was all extreme civil agitation with sticks including hitting my dog showed fight and was good  BUt this was her first training lesson with him and he didnt even touch her in prey it was PURE DEFENSE.  THe dog is only 15 months old.  How does my pos trainer expect any dog to enjoy a lesson starts out with the dog getting the crap corrected out of it till it learns a command. AFter that the dog is worked in defense only agitated with sticks and hit a few times and at the end that is it no prey work no fun nothing positive at all. I was reffered to this person and was told me and my dog would be in great hands i signed a contract and dished out money.  A lot of money.  I was foolish. I will never make that mistake again.

Later on my trainer tried to convince me to leave my gsd with him for 3 weeks so he could turn her into a "machine" I am stuck now arguing w him for my money back not sure what im gonna do.  Dont think there is anything to do other than accuse him of lying and setting me up. WHen we talked before he had told me prey was used as a reward and that he used positive training methods on dogs as well.  I really trusted and respected the person who reffered me to this trainer which is why i let my guard down.  I have lost trust and respect for this person and only have hate and disgust for them now.  They actually have their own online forum.