How many times would be the maximum to see an individual dog/s in a 7 generation pedigree ? - Page 2

Pedigree Database

 
Koots

by Koots on 28 November 2020 - 20:11

Das Holz - if that is the case, then why does the SV limit line-breeding to 2-3 or 3-2 at the closest?

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 29 November 2020 - 02:11

Full siblings are hardly 'unrelated genetics', are they ?

by duke1965 on 29 November 2020 - 02:11

so if it happens because of lack of other options its a whole different thing than someone intentionally linebreeding on a dog heavily ,, and furhermore, if you have a dog in a pedigree somewhere multiple times, doesnot mean you are "geneticly" linebreeding to him, 

most linebred dogs only look a bit (looks and caracter) like the dog linebred on, and then a bunch look nothing like the one linebred on, as its not a paper furmula that works wonders all the time


by Das Holz on 29 November 2020 - 06:11

Please read the Book ABC's of Dog Breeding. It is fine with me that they will limit a breeding to a 2-3 or 3-2 is fine with me dogs outside the third gen do not mean much if you are working to get what you want but you can also get what you do not want like the hidden bad stuff. But if you look at what is bred and people buy to start breeding with most have open pedigrees. If you are going to breed you need to look way down the road, So you should start with a well bred dogs that have been tightly linebred or inbred. Just my opinion you can breed how you like cause every new pup is a whole new set of DNA. I am doing family breeding from Frozen semen of dogs from 1989,1990.2000.2008. Linebreeding beyond the 4th gen. Same dog 12 times in the 5th gen his coefficient of inbreeding would be 1.8% that is on average only 1.8% of his genes are in the offspring.

K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 29 November 2020 - 08:11

Das Holz
Can I ask if this particular (A) dog is 12 times within 5 generations
And his coefficient is 1.8 %
And (A) is known to have let's say hip and elbows that did not score well.
And he also had faulty ear.

Does this mean that out of 100 pups he Sired
18 of these pups will carry those faults ?


by Das Holz on 29 November 2020 - 08:11

K9HAUS that will be seen in offspring and unless he was super I would not have done that breeding with the amount of studs out there I have had and have now two German Shepherds with great dogs behind them both developed DM , the one I have now is over seven an showing the signs the other show late in age twelve. Now I will never buy one unless it has been tested. If they have a genetic disorder that will give them a poor life then you must decide what to do with them and with genetic screening you can rid some problems other can be bred out if you know how. I have done a 2-2 on a male I bred will see how that turns out I have his grand daughter from him bred 3-5 on her Grandam, who was out of two top litters in Germany with her sibling producing most of the dogs who produced some really nice dogs and bitches. I will be back breeding into Family lines.

by Das Holz on 29 November 2020 - 08:11

Then if the Breed Org. does like the ADRK and has breed warden who is in charge of over seeing of breedings an Breed books that show all the breedings and results with Faults. That can show you what is producing what and like I found lines to go to and ones to stay away from.

Koots

by Koots on 29 November 2020 - 12:11

 It is fine with me that they will limit a breeding to a 2-3 or 3-2 is fine with me dogs outside the third gen do not mean much if you are working to get what you want but you can also get what you do not want like the hidden bad stuff.

I consider linebreeding fairly ineffective unless it is within the first 3 or 4 generations, depending on the dog of course.    As you have stated, closer linebreeding can bring out the bad recessive traits just as easily as the desired ones.    This is where complete honesty and disclosure by breeders is important, otherwise those bad recessives will not be identified, and hence cannot be eliminated.    I had a dog that was closely linebred on a Cz dog from a well-known breeder.   After 50 grand-mal seizures (idiopathic epilepsy), he was relieved of his suffering.    Did his close linebreeding bring out a 'hidden' recessive?   Perhaps, but since there is no mention that I could find about epilepsy in his lines, it's inconclusive.

A lot of GSD breeders do not linebreed any closer than the 4th or 5th generation, which to me is not close enough to be influential in the outcome of the pups, at least if trying to reproduce characteristics of that certain dog.   


K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 29 November 2020 - 16:11

Koots I'm all for closer knit breeding in the first 3 generations.
3-2 or 2,3-4 as an example
To aim and reproduce certain traits
Just recently was looking more into certain pedigrees.
Mainly DDR lines
And noticed alot of inbreeding going on in the 7 th generation.


Koots

by Koots on 29 November 2020 - 20:11

If you do a 'search forums' for 'backmassing' you will see a few threads that discuss what you are referring to. Some pedigrees have so much repetition of certain dogs in the 5th, 6th, 7th generations that it can lead to problems, especially with 'hidden' recessive unwanted traits.

I am in favour of linebreeding especially when used to establish a breeding program and set certain type/traits. In fact, when I look at a person's/kennel's breeding program, I like to see a plan utilizing linebreeding and not just repeated outcrossing. When to use each is also critical, IMO.   Of course, this is all in addition to looking at the characteristics of the 'dogs in front' and their genetic strengths, etc.






 


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