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Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 12 August 2020 - 07:08

Hund, I have always been a big advocate of separating puppies after they are weaned and allowing daily interactions that are supervised. The pups eat alone, sleep alone and get socialized alone, that way you can observe their individual weakness and strengths.
In my mind, there is nothing to be gained by leaving them all together, except some will become bullies and others pushovers, because that is how the genetic dice were rolled.
I have interest in neither and I believe that this method gives puppies a chance to flourish on their own, for their own.
Over the years, I have heard the arguments, "they need to learn bite inhibition", no, my dog does not and if he does, its MY job to teach it, not some other pup or the bitch.
Social skills can be learned according to my likes and dislikes and prepare the puppy for the life that it will live in my home and the real world.
I have seen pups that have stayed together too long and become "doggy" and that is not a place I want to be. I cannot stand a dog that looks for other dogs in order to feel whole or entertained or whatever and no human will ever be as much fun as another dog to play with all day, no thank you.

There can absolutely be a balance of both. It's called: Structure :)

Like I said, I raise all of mine in the house. When they are puppies, they are crated inside the home but outside, in the yard, they have all the freedom they want and are allowed to interact with the older dogs or with sibblings. In the house, they are separated and crated, until they have proven they earned their freedom. They get invidividually worked by themselves, individually taken out. But they still get playtime and freedom with other dogs.

You can absolutely have a balance of interacting with other dogs and still getting the individual time to work in.

Right now, I have a dog that I couldn't crate as puppy because things went a wee bit sideways. She was in two different homes and a lot of puppy to deal with, so she was crated too much and it turned her sour towards the crate. So we had to work through that when she came. I utilzed an older dog to make her feel comfortable in the crate, first crate together, then next to each other and now it's not even a problem anymore. It wasn't fun having a wild pup without the option of crating her to implement structure but she's still bonded to me and not to my male. I simply went the food route instead and handfed, or let her scavenge. There are ways to raise dogs together without them becoming too dependent on each other. I do utilize my older dogs to housebreak puppies etc.

 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 12 August 2020 - 08:08

Masks ??? Oh, TWC's ref to people being shut indoors. Well, just as with the riding on flat bed trucks issue, I suppose we have to take into account people's different circumstances a bit - if you are in a very rural. slow-going area you can no doubt get away with far more than those in built-up places ? Nevertheless, it was the dogs' minding their own business I was impressed with, rather than being in/on the truck per se. Actually you can always need to brake sharply sometimes no matter how clear your local roads, so maybe it isn't such a good idea. ;-)

BE It is surprising just how close a (related) 'family' of dogs can get to wolf-pack behaviours. One of the reasons why I don't feel 'dominance' gets a fair description among people who want it to mean something more in people terms was that watching my family pack over some years, they did tend to be following one dog 'pack leader / alpha' - although not to the extent of substituting that for respect of human leadership. They also had a 'beta' dog; and an 'omega' dog in the group. The original Beta was a fabulous 'sorter-outa' and 'calmer downer', better at those functions even than the (very steady & sensible) Alpha dog; I really missed the (older) Beta dog after he died. I think the pack did too. We never replaced him satisfactorarily in that role. But the others always knew where the Alpha was, and whether he required them to follow anywhere. They did not follow the Beta dog in that way.

HD These dogs lived paired in kennels throughout the daytime, and were out at nights in groups - sometimes 2-3 strong, others 5 or 7. In the earliest years (before me) and again in latter years they were mostly exercised altogether as one group; or more recently sometimes 2, while some non-blood relatives we rescued were integrated. We did not often have to separate those which had been kept together since birth (except for individual training walks). Occasionally we ended up with 2 brothers or sisters that stopped getting on well together, but that was managed by not kennelling them or siting them 'at work' together, they could usually still be exercised together, because one of us humans was always with them on walks. [Could equally have been 2 of similar age but not the same litter, I have known that happen.] Even sworn foes could usually be rehabbed back into being non-aggressive around each other; we only separated them if absolutely necessary, and this involved pairing with non-combatent companions - although I admit some dogs found new homes as part of managing that !


by ThatWasClose on 12 August 2020 - 15:08

I knew dogs on flatbeds would "enliven" the conversation...

My take, I would rather see the dog loose on the truck, so it stands half a chance if it comes off going down the road, or in one of your road accident scenarios. You would not believe how quick reflexed & agile these animals are. If it is chained, it is guaranteed whiplash, a broken neck or more likely death. Crated? Injury. Death. Crates are plain not practical for actual ranching. Out working, the dogs need to be on & off the truck INSTANTLY as needed. Cows are not an animal to mess with. They will hurt you. They will KILL you.

In town I see some dogs chained to trucks. Thus obvious which dogs cannot be trusted to stay on the truck. Flapping their lips is still verboten.

I only know two people that crate their dogs:

One is a fellow that has greyhounds. Very interesting dog box. Very tall & narrow boxes. I did a double take the first time I ever saw them. His dogs can stand & stick their heads out. I know next to nothing about this fellow or his dogs. If you are in a bad way loosing livestock to coyotes I hear you might want to talk to this fellow.

The second fellow, well his dogs are flat out nasty arsed mean. Catahoula's. His dogs ride in big opened barred hog dog styles cages. I know his dogs are going to hit the bars & try to get me when I have to walk past his truck. I know it! I flinch every single time! They will get real quite as you approach, let you start walking by still silent. Then the second you are dead even with them, BANG! they hit they bars madder than the dickens! His dogs make little kids literally cry from just having the holy  living scared out of them. His dogs are cattle dogs. I have never heard of him having trained them for hogs. Not that they wouldn't go after hogs. My dogs aren't trained for hogs, but they too will throw themselves at them. Thank God, as a hog will kill a human.


This second fellow leads an interesting life. We only see him once in a blue moon, as he actually drives a real old fashioned chuck wagon on cattle round ups way south in Texas; on huge, many multi-thousand acre desert canyon ranches. All I can say is, I bet no trail hand is going to filch any food off that wagon, & the wagon surely is safe from any wild animals trying for a free meal. I think I remember years ago him saying mules pull the chuck wagon.


by Rik on 12 August 2020 - 16:08

nah, I grew up and live in what would be considered the most "redneck" area in the USA.

I have seen "dogs on flatbeds" all my life. it's just another way of saying that any dog that can't survive the actions of the driver is deserving the "Darwin" award. they just gone, so sorry. just get another dog.

nothing wrong driving around the farm, going down the hiway @ 60 mph and expecting the dog to do well in an accident or it's the dogs fault is just pure ignorance.

as always,
JMO,
Rik

by Hired Dog on 12 August 2020 - 17:08

I agree, a farm is a very different environment then the highway. I dont live on a farm, never have, no idea how things work there, but, I am on a highway every day and there is no way any dog of mine is riding loose in any bed of a truck.
They passed a law against that here a while back and they were right.
A friend of mine who lives up North makes fun of the way we city folks keep our dogs here, but, his entire city has a population of 65K, I have that many people around my block.

by ThatWasClose on 12 August 2020 - 17:08

County I live in, population under 6k. County where ranch is, population under 10k. Gee, no wonder we don't have a WalMart in either county.  Cows outnumber people by many thousand.


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 12 August 2020 - 18:08

BE It is surprising just how close a (related) 'family' of dogs can get to wolf-pack behaviours. One of the reasons why I don't feel 'dominance' gets a fair description among people who want it to mean something more in people terms was that watching my family pack over some years, they did tend to be following one dog 'pack leader / alpha' - although not to the extent of substituting that for respect of human leadership. They also had a 'beta' dog; and an 'omega' dog in the group. The original Beta was a fabulous 'sorter-outa' and 'calmer downer', better at those functions even than the (very steady & sensible) Alpha dog; I really missed the (older) Beta dog after he died. I think the pack did too. We never replaced him satisfactorarily in that role. But the others always knew where the Alpha was, and whether he required them to follow anywhere. They did not follow the Beta dog in that way.

Interesting tidbit, my G litter was whelped within the living room with my two boy males around because of COVID my boarding dogs had to stay longer than expected. So all of that threw us a curveball. So I used exercise pens and blankets to give her privacy and it worked really well. Now, Athos, the sire of the litter actually switched rolls with the mother. When she went out, he went into the whelping box to stay with the puppies and laid there, cleaning and grooming them. It was really awesome to see how the father actually was involved in the entire process of whelping and caring for the puppies. I think overall I've got some seriously social dogs and close knit family ties because I am raising my breeding females, that I keep, up with my male and then hold something back that I may or may not place later on. I have videos of him in the whelping box laying with HIS puppies and it's just the sweetest thing.

 

 

My take, I would rather see the dog loose on the truck, so it stands half a chance if it comes off going down the road, or in one of your road accident scenarios. You would not believe how quick reflexed & agile these animals are. If it is chained, it is guaranteed whiplash, a broken neck or more likely death. Crated? Injury. Death. Crates are plain not practical for actual ranching. Out working, the dogs need to be on & off the truck INSTANTLY as needed. Cows are not an animal to mess with. They will hurt you. They will KILL you.

 

There is a difference between "out on the ranch" and driving down a highway into town. When you hit that break, the dog goes flying and there is nothing that will safe the dog.


by ThatWasClose on 12 August 2020 - 18:08

EB, you are more than welcome to come on down & tell the ranchers they are doing it all wrong. In fact please do. What kind of highways do you think we have anyway???


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 12 August 2020 - 19:08

I don't care what ya'll do. That's your business. If it works for you, more power to you.


by ThatWasClose on 12 August 2020 - 21:08

You who BE? You who??? Are you pointing your finger at me?





 


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