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by duke1965 on 13 August 2019 - 19:08

people select breedingmaterial on long jump

by apple on 14 August 2019 - 11:08

Valk,
I would say the jumping during guarding per se is not heritable, but more so, the level of drive and frustration when the drive is being capped leads to the jumping and it is the drive that is heritable.
emoryg

by emoryg on 14 August 2019 - 13:08

In my schutzhund days there were a few bloodlines where quite a few of the offspring displayed jumping behavior. The two that stick out in my mind are from Kim Wesserfeur (SP) and Zorro Laggerwall. The Zoro dogs also had a tendency to snap near your face, which was a bit intimidating, especially if you already received a few face bites. You could stop the bleed on some of the dogs, but it was usually short lived. Any stressor or abnormality in the routine could immediately open the wound. Dogs who only jumped in the blind were easier to fix. This was probably a behavior that was reinforced from a few mistimed feeds. Cleaning up learned behaviors is an easier fix.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa03ooNXaVw&feature=youtu.be

The video is of a Kim son from a 92 Schutzhund trial. I also worked some of his grandchildren and great grandchildren who had that characteristic jump.  

by apple on 14 August 2019 - 13:08

IMO, the B&H in IPO/IPG has become a useless exercise. The dog does so many repetitions while training, it doesn't tell you much about the dog. The exercise is supposed to have the dog working in serious aggression and holding the decoy using his bark rather than his bite, but that is not what is happening. The dog in your video is trying to make the decoy make prey so he can bite, so the dog is working in prey. I am training my current dog in PSA and will go with a silent guard because the barking is a waste of the dog's energy.

by Centurian on 14 August 2019 - 14:08

Apple . I agree with you - I have been sayoing this for 30 years.

Years back I used to hear " but the judges want to see the power [ via bark and hold] expressed by the dog. Then I used to laugh inside of myself for me the powe. I wanted to see the power of the dog as he was sustaining the intertaction / combat under pressure . Also there are other ways not just physically , if we want to look at the mentality of the dog , that he can project his strength through his menatlity / attitude.

And to tie thisB/H to another thread .. I can't tell you how many dogs that worked so hectic and frantic in doing the bark and hold . That is to say , they had a hard time controlling themselves via dirty bites , jumping all ovwer the place in ztad of confronting the helper right in front , in his face ,. Of course this occurs for several reasons. Mostly brecause the helpers would wind the dog up so much and frustrate the dog for that bite that these dogs literally would lose their head, sort to speak. Personally , and this is subjective .. I love a dog that works poised , calm cooI and collected and who knows that he is in control of the opponent and himself - that dog has no need to 'act out', sort to speak , IMOp . Actually IMOp that dog works much much mucj nmore efficiently and proficiently .

I often told this story about someone coming to my property and seeing one of my males go ballistic. The person said " wow look at that dog , I wouldn't want to go near him " . I turned to him and said " that is not the dog you have to worry about , the one standing next to him that is straing at you and is quiet , believe me , that is the one you better dam well be afraid of - silent but [ in a manner of speaking ] deadly . Proficient and efficient that dog was , wasted no time or energy - I loved that dog !
emoryg

by emoryg on 14 August 2019 - 14:08

Apple, I agree about it not telling you much about the dog. Working in prey for a bite has no indication of how this dog is off the field. I am the poster child of having my police dogs worked in prey and slipping the sleeve or the suit to reinforce behaviors.

Valk had mentioned about the jumping behavior and I was using this dog as an example of an inherited trait. I may have the video of the daughter of this dog during her Sch 1 routine. I am pretty sure I did the decoy work for the daughter and mother at the trial. Not all the dogs inherited this trait. One of the club dogs was a national competitor and I don't recall him and a couple other dogs not doing it. The female in the video (if I can find it) was about an even split with some jumping and some not.

by apple on 14 August 2019 - 15:08

I think a dog's bark can tell you something about a dog to the extent of what the bark sounds like and a dog learning to hold a person with his bark instead of biting because that is so unnatural for a dog to do. But in the context of IPO and the vast repetition and how it is trained, it looses its value. Regarding your comment about slipping the sleeve or the suit, I think if you are doing a suite sport or training a police dog, the dog should really never see a sleeve and the suit should never be slipped. I think it is best to start the dog on a leather covered bite pillow and then move to the suite and always out the dog rather than slip the suite. I also think the suite should be a competition suit that is not bulky so the dog can feel the man's movements through the suit. These are just some examples of the short comings of IPO IMO. I know some will argue that a suite can be perceived as a giant sleeve so to speak, but the foundation and how the suite is used and the type of suite can result in a better outcome teaching the dog how to fight. This also where a pushing bite comes in, which you really can't do well with a sleeve. I think pushing teaches a dog how to better fight a person. A lot depends on the dog and the training, as usual.

by ValK on 14 August 2019 - 16:08

duke, do you think it's related? i mean that the dogs, who's doing long jump toward subject of attack, also tend to jump in front of decoy.

emorig, thanks for video.
it's perfectly demonstrate what i very much don't like dog to do - expose itself in most vulnerable position at close proximity to opponent.

emoryg

by emoryg on 14 August 2019 - 16:08

Apple, There must be a reason why you would not let your dog bite a sleeve or slip the suit. Does it have something to do with teaching the out? Allowing my jute junkies to carry the equipment back to the patrol car was my way or reinforcing certain behaviors that I would need on real calls.

by Centurian on 14 August 2019 - 16:08

Apple you summed everything up well by your last statement : "A lot depends on the dog and the training, as usual." That is the biggest difficulty that I have with people and other posters to understand ....

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