What causes this working difference? - Page 7

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by apple on 17 January 2019 - 12:01

Bite drive is a term typically used to describe Malinois and it refers to a dog that has a compulsion to fill its mouth with an object and bite. It is related to frustration aggression because this type of dog is so driven to bite. You can see it in the dog in the video. There are no prey movements stimulating the dog. The dog just loves to bite.

by apple on 17 January 2019 - 12:01

I have seen several unregistered KNPV Mals that are angry as very small pups when biting and they wrap their legs around the wedge trying to possess it. They are not working in defense at all, but are angry and want to possess and kill the prey. Competitive aggression is all about the dog defeating his opponent and has nothing to do with defense drive, which is stressful to a dog and can contribute to flight. You see the same thing in game dead pit bulls who will fight another dog to the death. They are not working in defense, but will never submit. And they are not dominant because human aggression is selected away from in breeding. Another breeder of DS's in Holland that I am familiar with breeds the old style DS that is less prey drive and extremely dominant with a great deal of anger toward whoever he is fighting. Different from an extreme prey dog but just as effective and not so difficult to train due to the handler always having a fight on his hands. There is a limited market for this type of dog.

by Gustav on 17 January 2019 - 12:01

Most human’s actions are motivated by reasoning, most dog actions are motivated by drives( pack, prey, defense, sex, food, hunt, fight, fight can be in either defense or prey, ) if they are not being trained.

by duke1965 on 17 January 2019 - 13:01

Apple, you are wrong, that is prey all the way, I test every single dog for police for preydrive on a passive object, both in biting and in searching, if the dog has no drive to a passive object its a fail for me

and for the one thousandt time stop talking nonsense, a dog working in defense has ZERO more chance of flight than a dog working in prey, a weak nerved dog is a weak nerved dog, regardless of what drive it is working in, 

at least a weak nerved dog with agression will bite you when cornered, a weak nerved prey dog, when cornered , will only piss himselfWink Smile


by duke1965 on 17 January 2019 - 13:01

And that DH breeder you are referring to, is not thinking of his dogs as preydogs, they have a little bit more juice than that, I personally know him and I would say he agrees more with my point of view than yours, he breeds and trains some serious dogs, and I wouldnot do that shit in the video on an unprotected arm with any of his dogs for sure LOL

by apple on 17 January 2019 - 13:01

I said Dick's dogs had less prey drive.
emoryg

by emoryg on 17 January 2019 - 13:01

Duke, Thumbs Up

by apple on 22 January 2019 - 14:01

Duke said, "And for the thousandth time stop talking nonsense, a dog working in defense has ZERO more chance of flight than a dog working in prey."

Duke,
You missed my point. I agree a prey dog or a defensive dog can have weak nerves. My point was that Mike's experience in testing dogs is that most of the dogs who show what looks like defensive aggression are insecure. That is not to say there are no confident, defensive dogs out there. That is just Mike's experience. Also, he says his strongest dogs have always been very social. So those traits of very good nerves, extreme prey/fight, possessiveness and very social suggest a trend. You also have to consider he prefers certain lines and knows what they tend to produce, and the breeds are not a GSD.

by duke1965 on 23 January 2019 - 20:01

that is what one wants to see, I see a lot of young dogs that work over agression, that "look " insecure, because dumbass IPO people correct them when showing agression, and then shove a wedge up their mouth, these dogs dogs look insecure, but are actually confused, these dogs normally take 3 or 4 biting sessions, where I , not only allow them to get agressive, but also encourage and praise them, and let them get bite, and you see these dogsturn like a leaf.

 

now if some full grip, prey goeroe keeps working them in prey and correcting them for showing civil agression, they stay confused

 

here is one that was totally confused when first testing him  and got turned around

https://youtu.be/baTEm1I5xAM

by apple on 24 January 2019 - 11:01

I am not disputing what you are saying, but we are probably talking apples and oranges. I was referring to Mike's philosophy of assessing dogs and selecting for the type of dog he and his clients want. It is a different breed with a different set of genetics. So he is not an IPO person or looking at dogs for or from IPO lines. And he is looking for detection and apprehension dogs. His experience is that the majority of dog's displaying defensive aggression with little provocation, can either be run or are insecure based on his testing. The GSD probably needs more defensive aggression as they don't have the higher level of prey, frustration aggression and fight drive.

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