Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 18

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Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 09 May 2018 - 03:05

There is a difference between a dog being SENT onto a passive person and a dog attacking a passive person for no reason whatsoever.

And I hate the word "attack" or "learn to attack".
susie

by susie on 09 May 2018 - 18:05

No doubt there is, but honestly, we know nothing about the former training, we know nothing about the dog/owner constallation - a lot of dogs are "forced" to bite "civil" just because there is a market ( besides that a lot of naive owners do train with questionable suspects ) .

Do I like what I see? NO !
Does this dog look like a classic fearbiter? NO !
Will the owner be able to handle this dog appropriately in the future? I guess not...

I just don't like to declare a dog because of one videoclip as " not able to rehab ".

What the heck does "rehabbing" mean at all? Changing this Mal into the neighbourhood's best buddy? Won't work.

For me it would be more important to rehab trainer/owner in case of dog knowledge.

susie

by susie on 09 May 2018 - 18:05

Just a question: why don't you like the word "attack" ?
Dogs are teached to attack on regular basis, even sending the dog after a fleeing person is an attack ( no defence involved, no danger for handler and dog ).
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 09 May 2018 - 18:05

I've seen everything I needed to see in this video clip. What more do you need to know other than knowing that this dog is not a stable dog. The dog is not a dog I would want to own, handle or let loose onto the public. I wouldn't call him a confident dog either.

That's all there is to say about this topic. How this went all to "Police Dogs" again, I don't know but this type of dog should NOT be in a community working the street.
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 10 May 2018 - 06:05

BE I think it went on to Police Dogs because of the 2nd video being (supposedly) a Police Dog Unit training set up, with the 2nd, apparently 'out of control biter'.

Susie, your last but one post sums up the whole thred, and the question asked, very nicely, IMO!

by duke1965 on 10 May 2018 - 06:05

Susie, you CANNOT force a dog to bite civil 

and secondly, there are many colours between couragous dog and fearbiter, typical fearbiter(for me ) will avoid confrontation and when unable to avoid, will bite.

but this dog in might not be that, but is far from strong and couragous, and agree with you, cant fix it but also couldnot be fixed from young age if you wanted to.

blaming a trainer for this is not right, its dog behaviour, not trained behaviour, and like I said before, most likely the dog grew comfortable in behaving this way when insecure


Prager

by Prager on 21 September 2018 - 05:09

look at the video: When I look at the video of the dog like this I must consider the beginning of the process and the middle of the training and the end result. Personally, I would not start the dog that way with a muzzle if I would have more time. But here it seems that the trainer did all this in24 hrs or so thus time may be an essence. I have been in situations like this where the owner cam to my kennel and said do something now or the dog is going to be put down. So we do not knw the circumstances and the result was satisfactory,I doubt that anybody could do much better in such short period of time with any other method.  Nobody got bitten and in the ned the dog did Ok. Who can argue with this short-term success as shown in the video?

 The owner. The owner obviously had a problem with the dog that is why he came to the trainer.  The reason for his problem in my educated guess was that he did not establish a leadership position over the dog. He just was not able to do so most likely for one or two reasons. First, the owner is too soft for the dog and the dog senses it thus he establishes a leadership position over the handler. It is safe to say that the owner at this point is afraid fo the dog beyond all repair. This is irreversible especially if the dog bit him in the past.

 Second The owner who brought the dog to the trainer most likely did not participate in the actual training and got the dog  as a trained dog, and at best he may have got a handler's course which for dog like this is obviously inadequate.

 

The Trainer The dog was trained by someone who was able to establish a leadership position and did obvioulsy good job -judging from the obedience. Origginal  trainer must have had a  leadership position over the dog since you can see how the dog is a "good soldier" when commanded properly.  Thevideo trainerr is obviously old hand and "bridges" or taps into what the dog knows and is familiar with and is comfortable with and that is why the dog accepts this new trainer  because the  dog goes back to what he knew from past with his original trainer and transposes it on this trainer on the video.  I call this bridging.

The Dog. The dog is now comfortable with the new trainer as long as he does not do anything which his original trainer did not do and it is unusual for the dog. 

From the video, it is obvious that the dog was originally superbly well trained by someone who was not the owner of the dog on the video and the new trainer on the video found a "bridge" into the dog's comfort zone. The trainer has done it by his demeanor/behavior, correction voice infliction of the commands which the dog remembered from past where he was handled the same way by handler which he loved or at least respected. ( That in my eyes gives a dog some hope to find a good handler)  That respect and/or love then had been bridged onto the new trainer - the old hand guy on the video. And it brought the dog to the frame of mind with which he was familiar in the past.  This dog is very socially aggressive to the point that he could be safely called gangster dog.    Gangster dog is a dog who must have a leader but is only going to tolerate him if he is not doing anything he - the dog does not like. I would like to know more about this dog before Ii would say more. I have had such dogs and when I established a leadership position they loved me and I was perfectly safe with them and could do whatever I wanted from clipping their nails looking in their muzzle and they would probably let me hacksaw they leg off . But I have also seen dogs where no one could ever do anything uncomfortable to them ever or they would change your life. Both these types looked at first like the dog in the beginning of the video. The first one I would love to have the second one is a true Gangster and not much can be done with him because it is genetic. 

 Future

 IMO this dog is a rare occasion where I would say that the owner should not have this dog. I do not think that the owner man can change his personality to the point where he could handle this dog correctly. This dog needs an owner who is like the trainer on the video that is a person who can tap into the dog's training and past socialization (whatever it was) comfort zone and can establish a leadership position and will not do anything stupid to upset the applecart with this dog. There is a possiblity that this dog may accept 100%of the leadership of the new handler if all this done right and genetics of te dog will allow that. 

legs

Someone asked what is a significance of the dog holding the arm of the trainer with his legs. To the best of my experience,( I have been there)  this is exactly what it looks like it to be. And if you would be in that situation you too would know that I am right. It is an expression of an ultimate aggression where the dog wants to fuk up the man but has a muzzle in his way and is trying to figure out how to do it while holding the man.  This is an inherited instinct and that is why dogs have dew claws. To hold the prey or enemy so that it cannot get away. 

 Here watch this video you will see the same behavior. Before you get too indignant about this "trainer" please know that  this guy there is a vet and is trying to help. He doesn't own the dog, he is not a dog trainer and the dog was left at the dog shelter. He is  a vet and he trying to see if there is a chance for the dog. I am posting it because you can se the dog grabbing the man same way with hos legs. As you will see it is quite effective because the veterinarian could barely get away.  This is not too unusual reaction of a  for a dog who can not let go. :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVIp--9PA5Q

 

 


by jcturf311 on 21 September 2018 - 06:09

Ive seen these dogs in Afghanistan and they are no joke! I would like to know how the hell they got that muzzle on lol.

by apple on 21 September 2018 - 13:09

It is also difficult to assess a dog based on a single video, but this could be a case of true social aggression, which is rare do to being bred away from, people misunderstanding the behavior as fear based, and the bias that dogs should be social. True socially aggressive dogs (it is a trait not an adjective) simply have the desire to be aggressive to anyone outside their pack. It is a form of active aggression, so it isn't fear based. This trait can be managed via training, but such dogs will never be friendly with strangers. If the stranger meets the confrontation and subordinates the dog, then social order is established and I think that is what I'm seeing on the video. The dog's attempts to be violent to the stranger were futile due to the muzzle, so essentially, the dog was subordinated and accepted his status. I think in an unstable, nervy, overly defensive dog, the dog would never accept the stranger due to insecurity. It can be a useful trait, but comes with a lot of potential liability. Socially aggressive dogs, if you can find them, have their role, but they have to be matched with the correct handler and job.  The muzzle was likely put on by the handler because socially aggressive dogs are not aggressive toward members of their pack, only strangers.

Prager

by Prager on 21 September 2018 - 13:09

@ jcturf311 I was wondering exactly the same. But what I got is that the owner dropped the dog at this shelter and he probably put the muzzle on the dog.


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