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by magdalenasins on 06 May 2012 - 10:05

Do you xray and do other genetic testing?
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 10:05

Sue
Thank you very much for the invite, but it would be hard for me to travel to Wales at present.  I quite believe you are a responsible breeder, that your dogs are lovely, that you enjoy your hobby.  Like I say, I have no problem with any individual white dog, as a dog.  The point you seem to be missing (and I am not trying to be hurtful here, just factual) is that someone like you (provided that you are what you claim to be, and this IS the Internet !) is a "drop in the ocean" as far as the history of any 'variety' of White Shepherd is concerned.  Caring breeders may be on the increase now, but they
cannot deny the past.

We are just at that point where, before very long, the truth will be obscured by the passage of time;  the pedigrees will be too long for the majority of punters to wade back through.  Its only nit-pickers like me, more interested in bloodlines than in buying puppies, who will want to bother.

This does not make a jot of difference to the fact that "you" (i.e.  collectively)  are building towers based on sand rather than firm foundations.  You will all continue to get problems, from pink noses through to epilepsy, because the foundation is corrupted.  People deliberately produced whites because they could make money out of them, they usually didn't stop to worry about "health testing" in any shape or form;  or about retaining working ability;  or about being "ecumunical with the actualite".  Probably many of the people advising you from the UK who have been so helpful and supportive will have been
guilty of the above.  There are certainly enough people still breeding white GSDs for profit in the UK, you only have to look up the KC Breed Records Supplements to prove that - and that's only the REGISTERED ones.

All that stuff about wanting to save the poor doggies 'cos they were so pretty and nasty GSD breeders were culling them out just because they couldn't Show them - well, I ask you:  who the hell 'throws away' the price of a couple of 'pet' puppies, especially when there is huge demand for them among pet-lovers, and  when they can be flogged as "rare" whites ?  If it happened at all, it happened rarely, and almost certainly for more complicated reasons.
(BTW, what do your lot do in this day & age with the odd 'coloured' pup thrown up in white litters ?)

Yes I'd heard there is entropian in Danes.  No I don't want to see it.  We didn't have a problem with it in GSDs;  now people are on PDB crying they have White Shepherds with it,  where's that got in and why ?

Sereno

by Sereno on 06 May 2012 - 11:05

I chose to use the BVA system for scoring my dogs hips/elbows even though they were x-rayed by a vet in Spain.  If not MDR1 +/+ proven by parentage I have them tested for MDR1  -  more recently i am looking into testing for DM.  As i stated previously I use Laboklin svcs. 
The above are currently what my dogs are tested for - i may add to this list at a later date.

Sue

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 11:05

Magdelanasins -  Sue said she shells out for BVA scoring; I believe her, though I cannot check because I do not know her kennel name.  And of course I don't know, therefore, what results she's getting.  Occasionally breeders of whites - whether registered as GSDs or not - do;  but its pissing in the wind when we are talking about breeding dogs with multiple lines to known epileptics, for just one example.  And none of them seem prepared to discuss just where the (mainly UK) "registered
white GSDs" turned into FCI-accepted, true-breeding Swiss (or other) White Shepherds.
Are you following me around ?   L xx
Sereno

by Sereno on 06 May 2012 - 11:05

try 'Sereno Spirit'

www.whiteswissshepherds.co.uk

No one as ever hidden the fact that WSS/BBS originate from WGSD lines - you only have to use this website search engine for geneology to know that. 

I have offered you to visit my home here and our dogs i cannot offer anymore (although if you are over in Ireland in August - Munster Circuit ....) - I am not willing to get into a slanging match.  I am just going to continue enjoying my dogs  and i wish the same to you with yours.


Sue    

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 13:05

Thank you for the Website link, Sue.   Funny but I can only see FCI hip grades on your breeding stock.  Not that thats bad in itself - but you've said you have "chosen to use the BVA system", so it would be nice to be able to find some actual KC/BVA scores attached to any of your dogs on there ?  As your 'A' litter have passed their 1st birthday, might I enquire as to whether any of their radiographs have been submitted yet ? 

I note the nice explanation of the HD/E scheme on your site;  pity the WSS 'mean' is still 19;  it is down to 15.7 for 2011 in
German Shepherd Dogs.

Tell me,  you say that "No one has ever hidden the fact that WSS/BBS originate from WGSD lines" - but you aren't actually shouting about it either, are you ?  I do wish I could be sure that no breeder conceals this from members of the public looking for puppies ...
What does the 'W' GSD stand for,  would that be Working ?  West German ?  or "White" ?  No such thing as a 'White German Shepherd Dog Breed' in the UK, remember.
Cova  has 'Blinkbonny', 'Amiscus' and 'Vondaun' ancestors, yes ?

No I don't want to indulge in a 'slanging match' either - but I don't actually think I need to.
Linda.


Sereno

by Sereno on 06 May 2012 - 15:05

You know the BBS is currently not recognised by the British Kennel Club as well as I so where would you find my dogs BVA scores listed and so why would they have a mean score for the BBS  (the 19 was obviously an old mean score for the GSD - so i made a mistake by not updating my website).

New owners of my puppies are given copies of both HIP AND ELBOW scores which are listed on my site.  I do not have to answer to you only to purchasers of my pups and myself and my own conscience if i make mistakes. 

My litter A have only just turned a year and I am personally paying for three of them to be scored under BVA even though all pups i have sold have gone to pet homes and not breeders.  I wish to know for myself what they are scoring and luckily their new owners have agreed for me to do this.   

Anyway .... i am obviously banging my head up against a brick wall now and i certainly have nothing to prove to you - you are obviously just another one of those breeders ... been there done it and wearing the tatty old teeshirt for thirty or forty years not wanting anyone else to tread on their toes and make their own mistakes or hopefully benefit the breed they love .......    heard it all before MORE's THE PITY!   People like you (WITH SO MUCH EXPERIENCE) should be offering helpful advice not trying to shoot down people's dreams.  At least in Europe I felt like an equal and my dogs are given a fair go in the ring not being judged by who's holding the LEAD!

And by the way my dogs have also been judged by a couple of well known British Judges with fantastic results but then i suppose you know better than them! 

do not bother replying as i have no more to say.

Anybody who reads this post wants to see my dogs or know anything about their health or my breeding plans in the future please feel free to phone or email me through my website (I am also on Skype) I would be more than happy to talk to you about my honest experiences with the White Swiss Shepherd/Berger Blanc Suisse.

Sue Renno

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 16:05

Strange how people leave the playing field in high dudgeon when it gets a little hot.
Interesting that there have been questions on this board (asked by other people, not me) about the origins of the WSS/BBS, and about whether any of them are titled anywhere, which have been up for weeks without ONE reply.

I am not and never have been a breeder myself, which gives me ample room just as an interested observer and 'Shepherdite' to comment on all kinds of breed-related matters, [safe in the knowledge that no-one can then get back at me by discouraging people from buying from me,  or not place me in the showring, or any of the other tricks that go on.]  At least I am not making money out of my chosen breed.  Do you want me to put up some of the recorded white GSD litters I am referring to, on here ?


Oh, to answer YOUR question :  where would one expect to find the BVA score results on your stock ?  Well clearly not the KC's website;  but on yours, when you are advertising a litter, yes.  Its fairly standard practice across the board with conscientious breeders to list such things (at least where they are proud of them ) and
I would have hoped to find such information in the case of a new 'breed' trying to gain credibility.  Particularly if I actually wanted to buy a white pup.  We frequently critiscise GSD breeders who do not do this, why should we make an exception for WSS ?  Especially in the UK in the current, post PDE, climate.
  






 

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