health gaurantee - Page 2

Wow! Thank you all for your responses! Exspecially Hodie. The buyers did inform me in thier letter that they would keep the dog, but the letter was filled with such anger and misunderstanding that I couldn't stand the thought of how this puppy may be treated in resentment. I do know that the actual buyer the husband, who I spent 30 minutes on the phone with prior to his visit of about an hour playing with all the puppies, sire and dam; is the only one in all this who has become unavailable. His wife, who did not come out with him and was not in attendance with him at the Vets office is the one who picked up the sword. I think I may be caught in more than a puppy issue here. I also appreciate the honest comments about finding a part time job if I am just looking for extra money, because you are right, this is alot of work! This situation alone has caused me an enormous amount of worry and time in investigating heart mumurs; health gaurentees and trying to decide above all what is right. However, I am here for the long haul, this is an awsome breed and should be shared with others, for the purpose of show, work, or companion. And above all kept to it's highest standard. So here's what I have decided, since my attempts at helping them replace the puppy with a healthy one has proven to be offensive instead of helpful, I have composed an email reinstating my intent was all along to provide them with a healthy puppy, to become a chersished part of thier family, and since I have been unable to do this, I am leaving it up to them to determine what they feel is fair and just. I have told them that thier hands are not tied in any way. Is this acceptable?

After thinking some more on this metter and reading other posts, I think the ONLY right thing to do is to take the puppy back for a full money refund. Just really, why don't they want to provide a letter from the vet? Also, another question to every one. What do you guys do if the new owner of a pup just doesn't want it any more? Too many puddles to clean, or a child is not as excited about it as they thought it would be, or any other, unrelated to health reason? Do you think the breeder should take it back for a full refund? Or take back with no refund?

Hi Lyn. At the time of birth theoretically EVERY pup has a heart murmur because the wall between the heart chambers is still open. It has to do with the fact that a pup is connected to the dam via the umbillical cord for blood supply. That wall between the chambers of the heart close over the course of a few weeks after birth. In some pups the process takes longer. Then you have something that is call a juvenile heart murmur which is actually quite common. Juvenile heart murmurs usually go away within 6 months or sooner. It is quite readily detectable providing you have a good vet who does thorough checking. The problem is that you cannot be absolutely sure just from detecting the heart murmur if it is juvenile and will go away or not. Not at 2 months of age anyways. If the murmur gets less within the course of a couple of months, chances are it is indeed just a temporary condition. There may also be other causes for the murmur. Valve problems, etc. What the vet actually hears (or you - if you ask your vet to listen to it which I recommend you do, and bring a healthy pup for comparison) is a backwash of blood that interrupts the normal forward flow and can cause eddies etc. The backwash happens because some part of the heart does not provide a perfect seal. The 2/3 or 3/3 is the grading of the murmur from a scale of 1 being the softest murmur, 6 being the strongest. Murmurs of 4 and above can sometimes even be felt by hand. Eichenluft - I would ALWAYS question a vet on conditions that are hard to diagnose. I quote from a vet site I frequently refer to for info: "It can be very hard to determine if a heart murmur is present when listening to the chest of an excited dog. Respiratory sounds can mimic a heart murmur when respiration is rapid enough to approximate the heartrate." As a matter of fact, the vets I deal with all know that I have several other regular vets I go to for second and third opinions on everything other than routine stuff. I always ask the what ifs, and always ask for alternatives. Has saved me some of my dogs in the past, saved the dogs from some unnecesssary surgery or other radical and invasive treatment, and has saved me a ton of money as a nice side effect as well. Each vet has their own strengths and I use whoever is strongest and best in the field I need to be concerned about at the time. I have made my vets educate themselves further on many occasions and we usually have a very good working relationship. Back to the subject at hand... A few possibilites: - Your vet may not have detected it. If the vet office or the room you were in is very noisey he could have missed it. For the reason stated above or he may have listed to the heart on only one side. If the murmur was audible from on the other side, he may have missed it. The vet should listen to the pups heart from the left, below the chest and the right side. - There is a murmur, which could be juvenile (temporary) and the pup will outgrow it, or it may be permanent. - There may not be a murmur. Your puppy buyer is using it as an excuse to get out of a purchase they are now regretting. You cannot be sure there is a murmur unless you get a written statement from the other vet or at least get the vets phone number and talk to him.

Your options: - It greatly depends on what your puppy contract states. It appears from your message that they signed a contract that provides them a replacement pup in case of health issues, so that is what they are entitled to. They are not entitled for money back. You can however always opt to give them a full cash refund. If you want to make a name for yourself as a responsible breeder, then especially in the beginning you need to make good impressions. If you don't have the money to give back to them now, draw up an agreement that they will get their refund when this puppy has been placed into a new home. - Your problem is that heart murmur is not covered in this contract. But - you are making an effort to resolve the problem even if she is blocking it. - In your favor is the fact that puppy was vet checked and cleared by the vet before it left for the new home. Now the buyers have the burden of proof. - In any case, you are entitled to proper proof! If you bang up your car, the insurance company requires a written statement about the damage (quote and/or police report). They will not just take your word for it. The buyer needs to provide you with proper proof that there is in fact a problem, and what the extent of the problem is. - If you wanted to take this even further you could question the quality and competence of their vet and demand another impartial evaluation. In other words, she may need to take puppy to a vet not associated with her vet, and for her peace of mind also not associated with your vet. Question is - do you want that hassle. Whether you are right or not, and whether it is just a temporary condition or not, you should ask youself if this is a good placement for your puppy. People like her can be hard to deal with and you may be in for a long haul if she gets back to you like this every time puppy sneezes. And someone who does not want to make the time and effort to take puppy into another vet for another thorough examination may not be a good home either. From what you describe, she does not like any of the other pups, and I think there is a good chance that she just doesn't like this pup as much as she thought she would either. Maybe she was not even the one who picked it and now she sees the perfect opportunity to get rid of an unwanted problem. You really should find out if she really likes this puppy, if she wants to have a puppy period, if they would like to keep it if the murmur turns out to be nothing, or if they are dead set on returning the pup. If the latter is the case there should only be one natural option for you... On the other hand you should not allow anyone to just bully you!!! Just because somehting thinks their are right, does not automatically mean that they are right. You should stand your ground, yet remain fair and objective as best as you can. You also need to consider the emotional state of the puppy buyer. If this puppy replaces a dog recently lost for example, these people do not want to face another possible heartache so soon. This could also explain their reaction. You need to be sensitive to such things as well.

Cheers Lyn, Unlike certain Breeders I've had the misfortune to deal with, you strike me as a very ethical, well-meaning person. Posts above make much of how if pup has health problem, then you should take it back and refund money etc. I can't see it in such simplistic black and white terms: is a slight murmur at that age really sufficiently serious to be classed as a 'health problem'? And, there must be legion of similar ailments where it's all a question of degree and definition. A buyer may also verbally declare whatever they like, but unless they present documentary evidence, were I in your position, I'd hardly take any notice! I think your mentioned email to them, under these circumstances, is unnecessarily kind. I presume that 'fair and just' includes option of returning pup and cash refund. I would add the proviso that they'd first furnish a written statement from their vet, together with some sort of opinion as to murmur's future consequence health-wise. One thing I've always had great problems with is this business of Breeder insisting on replacing a defective with another, without catagorical prior ageement thereto. In your case, of course, one nice healthy pup is as good as another. I'm thinking of where the buyer has carefully chosen a particular pup on basis of pedigree, standing of parents, and own breeding program. For a seller here to insist on 'replacement only' - perhaps with far inferior quality pup - smacks to me of fraudulent behaviour! Regards.

If your puppy has been vaccinated it should be safe to return home. For your peace of mind you could keep it in a separate room and crate it there for a couple if days until you are sure puppy is fine to join the rest of the gang again. Change of food is a minor issue really. Or do your dogs get sick every time they get into your garbage, the compost, the horse or cat food, eat that dead rabit on the side of the road or get a snack from your friend during tea because their eyes looked sooooo sad. Nope. For future reference you should address your own vet, tell him what has been found and ask why he did not find it. Tell him that a very thorough puppy exam is important to you for future litters. If you ever come across something like this again, and your vet detects it, you should keep the pup until the vet gives it a clean bill of health. That will avoid possible problems like this from the start. If this pup does have a hart murmur it might be a good learning experience for you. Work together with the vet, let him educate you, ask him to educate himself further. Then monitor the progress. If pup outgrows it, you can always sell it as a young adult, then with a clean bill of health. If the pup does not outgrow it you will experience first hand some of the pitfalls of breeding and how these things need to be dealt with. And, you will experience the work involved in either having to keep some of the "rejects" or how hard it can be to place a "defective" dog. There are people out there who do not mind taking in a dog that has health problems, but both parties need to be clear about what they are getting themselves involved in so that you will not find yourself in that same boat again some time soon. Sorry to hear that you are getting pushed into the cold water with your very first litter. It sounds like you are trying to do your best. Keep doing it :).

hello eichenluft -- ypou have given erxcellent feeback and advice -- not to be rebullted in my outlook -- van i add something here ?? by all means if one does not understand a finding by the vet .. or if your dog has some very seriuos situation -- do not always take word as gospel ... you must truely know the qualifications and experience of you vet in general and in specific matters pertaining to what is saiod .. i do not mean to argumentative ... i do not intend to undermine or bellitle the veternary vocation... but medicine is my business .. i have seeen vets didagree on something so fundamental tyo pur breed .. hip dysplasia .. even within the same office -- one diagnosed a 1 year l;od dog early dysplasia and the other vet stated the x-rays look very good -- well .. thank goodness i can read the x-rays myself ... so recent grads or inexperience in a situation does exist .. i agree on every word that you have previously stated but if you need understanding and verification or documentation -- then don't be shy , speak up politely if need be. ... besides -- doctors are human and they do make mistakes as much as i , like everyone else, would not to like to think so .. they are just people too . -not a quistion about questioning sometimes but more so of fully understang too .

Hi Peter, I reckon you are well today :O)

I would agree with everyone here who says give a refund and take back the pup. Put it apart from the other dogs, or with a relative with no dogs for a few days. Take it to the vet. Get it checked out yourself. Make sure the pup is calm and happy, not under stress when examined. Lyn, glad you like the breed. And are in this for the long haul. But, if you are selling pups as pure companions, are you doing your part to insure that they are from sound healthy stock? Hips, elbows certified? Titles of SOME sort, earned honestly? Having a family male and female companion and breeding for companion pups does not test your parents for the correct temperament. Breeding is a great deal of work. Therer are many many GSDs in rescues and in pounds and put to death horribly every day. Many of these came from homes where their paretns were someone elses good tempered loving pets. Many good tempered dogs produce poor tempered pups. Dogs happy in their own environment does not always mean that the dogs are breedworthy. You obviously love the breed and want to do this right, so the first thing to do is to educate yourself on what correct temperament and nerves are. You already started educating yourself on health issues. You also need to educate yourself and know for sure that your breeding stock is sound in every respect. This is not a flame. This is an honest commentary based on the comments above. There are too many excuses for why dogs should be bred in spite of this or that problem. In order to make good pups, you have to start out with good parents, and when you love your dogs, it is not easy to be objective. I am hoping you do AKC obedience or agility or tracking if not shutzhund so that you can get input as to the parents qualities - good and bad - and know that they are a good match. And yes - responsible breeders should take back a puppy if the owners change their mind. Refund? Depends all on the circumstances. If there is nothing wrong with the puppy, and it was not mistreated or ruined, it should be a possibility, but not a given - too many gray areas to give a definitive answer.

Hi Lyn, I would just take the puppy back and refund the buyer's money. In the long run this will probably prove be the best option for the puppy.