Defense drive or Prey drive - Page 9

I think many of you folks are confusing a GSD with normal temperaments ability to reason and learnm and make sound judgements not to "jump off of a cliff" or "run infront of a car", or "jump off a building" as a fear reaction.  In a GSD with courage, intelligence and reasoning ability, this is not fear but informed, intelligent learning and judgement.  The electric collar you mention wouldn't work on a dog as tough as UFO, who was incapable of being afraid.  He would have played along until you turned your back and then he would have had at you in real time, and you would have gotten a serious and deserving lesson, not to abuse such a dog. Lenon would do the same.  A really tough GSD expects respect and deserves it.  When I trim my dog's nails (which he hates) I have to do it respectfully or he will grab me.  And yet he is totally devoted to me and very obediant in every other way.  But if I was to disrespect him he would raise his lip to me.  We are all entitled to our opinions.  I just think you folks that believe all GSD are normally afraid are wrong.  I sincerely believe that a significan number of ones with normal temperament do not experience fear.  It could be that you have been using GSDs that have had this high level of courage selectively bred out of them.  They don't call it a courage test for nothing.  Raw courage by a GSD expressed in response to an "incursion" or threat to their territory or dominance is in no way a fear response, but a decision by the GSD to dominate and control, that is to defend his symbolic turf (the immediate space around him or his master or his home turf). Maybe you just haven't ever seen what a really tough, courageous GSD is. Certainly you have not experienced a "gangster dog" like Walter Martin always kept in his kennel to breed in periodically to embolden his GSDs.  Anyone who ever saw Lenon or Ufo close up would never say they were capable of experincing fear.  These GSDs were highly intellgent, super dominant and refused to be defeated in any fight.  Period.  And this is the truth.

workingdog, then let me see if I understand your post.  The only reason you don't jump in front of cars and jump off of buildings is because of fear?  I don't do those things because I don't desire to engage in destructive or highly stupid behaviors.  A GSD or a man is capable of reasoningg in regard to safety issues.  This is not a fear response but a response due to reasoning, judgement and learning.  And I am well aware of many such related animal and psychological studies, having graduate degrees and over 17 years of classes in psychology from a major University.  In fact there is a significant body of research on animal reasoning and judgement behaviors.  So I know what I am talking about. There is no need to name call. I understand that many of you working dog devoteees believe your GSDs experience fear and that it is a desirable trait for the training you do with them in Schutzhund.  Also, I never claimed to be a dog trainer or a sch trainer.  I do claim to know correct, normal and optimal GSD temperament when I see it.  And I confess that I like a good looking GSD, close to the standard in all ways, whether they be sable from good working lines or showline (I have owned from both and always appresiate a good GSD no matter waht type, working line or showline.  But I do want a sound, loyal, stable, courageous and protective temperament in my GSDs).  I have housedogs only hat live with myself and my family and do not live in an outside kennel or crates.  I will not accept a GSD that reacts with "faux protection" or "faux aggression" out of fear.  I want a GSD that acts out of reason, courage and the decision to dominate a situation and take control. Do you sincerely think that if you had broken into Utz's home at night he would have ever backed down from you?  I don't think so.  I know the GSDs I have wouldn't.  One was tested in real time by someone who kicked in my front door during the day when I was home.  My GSD confronted him and chased him out into the drieveway when I called him off.  The dog was not afraid, just angry and determined to dominate.  I think you need to investigate territoriality and domination phenomena and forget this fear based training perspective.

OK, so first off, please break your posts up into smaller chunks cause it really sucks to read them like that. : )

Preston, you are absolutly killing me here.

QUOTE:  The electric collar you mention wouldn't work on a dog as tough as UFO, who was incapable of being afraid.  He would have played along until you turned your back and then he would have had at you in real time, and you would have gotten a serious and deserving lesson, not to abuse such a dog.

Played along until you turned your back??? This is not a strong dog if it waits for you to turn your back, and a really bad analogy. Are you a show person??? I cannot believe that a working person would even have a thought process like this.

E-collar, well, you are not supposed to turn them up and just blast at will, because if you do, there is no training. Most dogs just shut down and what have you accomplished???? The idea is to just get their attention, and in doing so remind them of what it is that you want. Or to show them that they need to respect your wishes to come off the decoy at the whistle.

QUOTE:  A really tough GSD expects respect and deserves it.  When I trim my dog's nails (which he hates) I have to do it respectfully or he will grab me. 

This is not a toughness issue, as it is an owner issue. He does not see you as the one in charge. These types of behaviors can be corrected, but I am not willing to type that much. LOL

QUOTE:  But if I was to disrespect him he would raise his lip to me. 

Yet another quote showing that the relationship between the two of you is incorrect.

Quote:  I just think you folks that believe all GSD are normally afraid are wrong.

I cannot find where we said that GSD's should normally be afraid. We talked about defense being a fear based response, and about fear forward, but no "normally afraid"

QUOTE:  I sincerely believe that a significan number of ones with normal temperament do not experience fear.  It could be that you have been using GSDs that have had this high level of courage selectively bred out of them. 

Number of ones is incorrect grammar. It is also extremely irritating. Do you also say where are you at??

Please post the pedigrees of the dogs you own, as I cannot believe that such dogs as you are speaking of exist. I am curious.

Courage. Please tell me your definition of this. My example is pretty easy to get. I was in the Marines, and I always thought it was fun to jump out of an airplane. This required no courage on my part. I knew a guy that pissed himself everytime, and had to be pushed out. Yet he always got on the plane, and always stood in the door. This is courage.

QUOTE:  Raw courage by a GSD expressed in response to an "incursion" or threat to their territory or dominance is in no way a fear response, but a decision by the GSD to dominate and control, that is to defend his symbolic turf (the immediate space around him or his master or his home turf).

This whole statement is crap. I think I am getting dizzy.

QUOTE: Maybe you just haven't ever seen what a really tough, courageous GSD is.

Oh for Gods sake, stop it. suddenly you are the only one with experience?? The only one with tough dogs??? I am dizzy, I have to stop.

Folks, this is not about slamming on Preston, this is about dispelling the myths that surround dogs. Overall, they are OK at best. I have been all over the world, and seen all kinds of dogs and they really are not all that 99% of the time. God knows I wish they were.

Jeff,

Quote: "Played along until you turned your back??? This is not a strong dog if it waits for you to turn your back, and a really bad analogy. Are you a show person??? I cannot believe that a working person would even have a thought process like this."

Hold on now, not ALL show people buy into this type of thinking. Some of us actually want a do that CAN REALLY work.

Just for the record, I agree with pretty much all of what you are saying. I have been following this thread, as I am learning as well.

I must say though, ALL dogs have some degree of fear. This is an absolute. As was said earlier, IF a dog does NOT have any fear at all, this is NOT a normal, healthy, mentally sound dog. This wold be equivalent to the people that are born without correct tnerve endings in their body. Have you heard of this? They literally CANNOT feel pain, and this is not a good thing! They could have their hand on a scortching hot stove and not even flinch, meanwhile the hand is melting. This is incorrect wiring and not desirable.

Maybe the problem Preston is having is with the "negative" connotation of the word "fear".There is a HUGE difference between having the ability to recognize a threat or intimidation, and actually being "fearful". Some degree of fear in certain circumstances is abasolutely necessary for survival, but not being "fearful". Being able to feel fear is NOT a sign of weakness.

Just the opinion of a novice- :)

Theresa

preston, you look both ways before crossing the street because you don't want to get hit by a car, you fear getting hit by the car. if you break it down fear, is why you learned to look both ways. do you feel fear now when you do to the road, no,  you know if you look both ways and advoid the car you will not be harmed (reason). all this stuff about fear is day one stuff pshy 101 maybe you missed that day???

thanks for clearing up that you have never trained a dog. (most of us already knew that by your post) without training, testing, pressing and working with a dog, IMO you cannot possibly know what a dog truly is, (temperment).

go do some research on fear. I'll say it again all animals fear, no exceptions, period.

please  preston e-mail me tpd2654@yahoo.com. i can dig up alot of papers, articles or just general info on this subject. like i said i feel bad that you have been around dogs for 40 years and you still don't have a clue. maybe i'll have pitty on you and i will mentor you. you need it.

Preston said, "having graduate degrees and over 17 years of classes in psychology from a major University"

Preston, there is only one thing left to be said about your posts: YOU ARE FULL OF POOP.

Quote: Hold on now, not ALL show people buy into this type of thinking. Some of us actually want a do that CAN REALLY work.

That is so cute, LOL Then get out of showdogs! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 

Your feind, Jeff  : )

Jeez, poor WatsonGSD's thread has been hijacked.

I have a showline dog that can work. We are currently preparing for our SCH1. I am really not biased though. I love a good working line dog as well! I would be happy to share a video or two of my "showline" in his 3rd session of bitework training!

PS- are you my personal "feind"?

As long as you are into showdogs, I will always be a good feind to you. LOL

17 years of...