Defense drive or Prey drive - Page 7

Oh, and according to Raiser, defense can either be active, or withdraw - so avoidence *is* defense - just not the kind we want to see.  Also, I did not realize the dogs owner had posted the link - please don't take any offense - I think she did ok and could be stronger with a better helper.  Also, regarding the "defense" comment your handler made - I'd dare say the dog had it's eye lockedon because she was holding the rag.  Should she drop it, or kick it away and the dog reamin focused on her I would call that "civil" nature and if when on the grip she doesn't look away I'd call that good breeding but not defense. 

-Calvin

preston you mentioned the dog Utz von Hirschel. if this is the dog that galye kirkwood had and won the seiger show with then i personally know one of the helpers that worked this dog alot. his comments on the dog were always very good. said the dog was a very good dog in the work always prodounced, but by no means was he able not to experience fear. you are totaly full of shit on this subject. maybe you don't know it? every dog has a fight or flight threashold without exception. i can prove it to you. here is the experiment: take any dog (the ones you say can't experience fear) have a helper go into a pound or swimming pole about waist high. send the dog in. when the dog ingages have the helper put the dogs head under water for a short amount of time until the dog releases ( he will release eventually). then take the dog out of the water and repeat the process. do that two time and i would bet my life the dog will be afraid to enter the water with the helper. 

watsongsd- I don't mean to get off topic but I have to say that I am impressed that at the age of 15 you know more about the breed/training than most newbie adults and it really bothers me that someone will bust your stones for lack of using correct terminology.  You're 15 and you're doing a fine job learning with what little resources you have to work with.  Please do not allow some of the bafoons that troll on here now and again to break your stride.  I am a newbie also; don't claim to be an expert and by far have much to learn and not just about dogs BUT with that said I bought my first GSD 9 months ago and I really didn't know a damn thing about nothing.  BUT I had the desire to learn and although it's not always easy getting "accepted" in the sport when you're brand new I was persistant to learn something from anyone that had anything intelligent to offer.  I took a little from here and little from there, read a lot, watched a lot, went and saw how other people train or do helper work, asked a lot of questions-maybe some felt were stupid but who cares I was there to learn not impress anyone.  You get a jerk off here and there but you just move on to someone else who's willing to offer guidance and as far as I'm concerned anyone that is trying to learn to do things the right way is OK in my book regardless of how old you are or if you fudge the terminology now and again.  The best way to learn is hands on, I get that you're limited to that where you live (GOD I WISHED I LIVED THERE) lol but I'm sure there's got to be SOMEONE who shares your passion.  Perhaps you can find someone who trains the k9's over there who may be willing to mentor you-here in the states officers frown on coaching civillians in training dogs but hey on the island you never know someone just might know where to send you.  Best of Luck. 

workingdawg, talk about using an obtuse example to support your claims.  It would be interesting to know the origin of this current "fear is necessary and good in limited amounts" myth held among many with GSD "working lines" who specialize in training sch competition dogs.  No need to name call here.  You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine.  I just don't think you know what a tough, supersolid, totally courageous GSD is.  I would never try to mock drowned any of my GSDs.  They trust me and would fight to protect me.  Why betray their trust with cruelty? You supposed experiment proves nothing other than when you betray the trust of your GSD, he may not agree to go into the water again without a fight.  And you are wrong about Utz.  He was courageous and did not experience fear. He would never back down from any man. If you think that you are wrong.  He was quick to react to any threat and was very aware of his surroundings.  In addition he had that unmistakable "look of eagles" or "fire in the eyes".  If you haven't seen this then you don't know what I am referring to.  And don'tt even try to tell me that Lenon was afriad of any man or anything.  It's common knowledge that the dog was totally fearless.  If you are correct and your GSDs are fearful(rather than just hypervigilant), then they are technically fear biters and are not what the standard call for.  Who would want such an unsound animal?  And this type of unsound GSD takes ten times as much sch training before it can get things right in the bitework because it is basically a fear biter.  I suspect that in these popular working lines, correct, corageous temperament has been bred out and replaced with weak nerved, hyperactive prey driven fear biters. 

Forgive me folks, I have tried but can't help myself.......

Preston is an idiot.

Cledford - no offense taken... and I don't think you were OT much at all as this thread originally started in hopes to see the difference in drives.  I posted because I thought I could help in that matter.  Although the messageboards has a lot of bad advice and people that know nothing... there are some that one can learn from... and I have a lot to learn... so please feel free to give constructive criticizism.  Nothing anyone can say will stop me from loving my little girl. 

As for the rag... that was the trainer's choice.  At home we play with a 4 inch thick jute tug... but she isn't tied.    The new rules and new person probably confused her and so did having me behind her.  As for her age... I was advised to not do too much too early... so I waited for her to grow up some... but still played at home.  And, finally, I should add that was not the entire session... but the rest was pretty much the same.

Uni, every dog is a journey, so enjoy it and have fun. If you are new, then video as much as you possibly can, it is a valuable tool.

Not for nothing, but I wouldn't let that person decoy for this dog, not very good, and for a green dog that is not good. : )

preston, fear is an instinctive responce common in all preditory and prey animals(dogs cats humans reptials ect.). no exceptions, it's a survival instictive behaviour. not a myth.

i just talked to my friend that worked utz many times over 2 years. he confirmed that utz could feel fear. he commented that the dog was strong in the work but not fearless. the dog worked well under threat but definatly felt threat (fear). it dosn't mean the dog was going to run just that he was capable of feeling threat (fear).

as far as name calling goes, i was just calling a spade a spade.

Quote: "look of eagles" or "fire in the eyes".  your a moron once again. if you can tell by the look in a dogs eye about how good he is then there is no need to train, test, or trial our dogs. we can just let you look into their eyes and tell us what he is.

if you do have 40 years in the game i feel fear for you. i fear that you might have just wasted 40 years of your life gaining a myth that some dogs are incappable of fear.

doing helper work over the last couple of years i have had the chance to work some awsome dogs. two of those dogs, from first hand accounts by 5 national helpers, are said to be the best bitting dogs the country has seen in a long time. those dogs also experience fear.

i can tell by your post you have never been a training helper in 40 years. maybe you have been running dogs in a ring for 40 years. maybe you have had your head in the sand for 40 years. i don't know what you have been doing for 40 years, but i do know that all dogs can experience fear. i encurage you to do some research on fear. there is alot of good scientific stuff on fear out there. and if you don't want to do the research you can just do my experiment i suggested. you can do it with utz, the dog with the eye of the eagle, the one with flames in his eyes, rin tin tin, what ever dog you want and i'm sure by the time the experiment is done you will have a dog that experiences fear.

now if you think that the working people are producing fear bitters then thats fine. most of the dog community outside of the show ring think the show people are producing crippled dogs in the gsds.  

workingdawg ..--correct. ALL animals experience fear and/ or stresses . sometimes ..it is so easy to overlook the most empirical and fundamental : FLIGHT .. FRIGHT ..FIGHT ... Responses .. one exception ..if an animal is incapable of fear... then it's autonomic nervous system may not be right.. simply said ..it is not right in the head .. it's missing a few screws in street lingo

THANKYOU ALL for sharing your thoughts .. I want to get back to my comment , more for novices as I acknowledge your posts and capabilities here. WE MUST WATCH THE CHANGES IN THE DOG >> not just cookbook if the dog stands this way looks this way then this is prey or defense . YES they are CLUES .. sure.. But desert rangers brings up a point .. THRESHOLDS  of dogs and the degree genetically of their neurochemical systems lend to different balances to whether a dgo is prey /defense/ balnced ets.[i know you filks know this] . so lies in the expression of the bent of the dog as it rerlates to context[again ..you folks know this]. I once trained a Malinios .. his genetic background .. the ATim line[ hard dogs bite hatd ] . you would agitatye thgis dog and he just stood there . he looked at you calm and rtalxed ..as if you weren't even there . I did all sorts of agitation movements. Almost every one in my bag of tricks ..he just stood out in front of the handler . stood still . didn't run from side to side . no iota of excitement. ? prey ??? defense?? . What do you all think here now at this point?   let me finish this yarn . ok agitated and got close upopn my approacjh to this dog ..he ddidn't even move..... until i was exactly in front about a foot away . THIS DOG struck out as fast as a snake and as hard as a truck !!   moral: to read this dog by so called body posture ... if one went by those foolish books .. they would have sent this dog back to the crate/kennel. BUT ..the STYLE .. again the STYLE of this dog.. pensive , calculating, watchful [to the point of sizing you and your weakness up !! ]. looked like he had no prewy drive right? also not stressed /defensive .. just stood there ..right? you must read the CHANGES in the dog. yes and look at the eyes[ the eyes did tell me about this dog BTW that is why I hung in there]. BTW in 3 months this dog went o to do Ring sport fuul body bite suit ! Last shareewd comment.. I do not take my dog out of a crate .. bring him on the field fire him up then do the session. If you understand prey/defense ..IMO there is no need of that. 1. i do not want my dog to ghet conditioned to the fact that he needs agitation to do the work ! secondly .. I do not let my dog think because he steps on a field .. he automatically will get a bite. my rersults: a GSD calm ,cool , collected  will stand nect to helper suiting up and not go for a vbitr .. walk hi 20 yards away ... one word he will be on you with a hard hitting crushing bute /will take you down . SO - for newcomers be very very very careful in training .. and one better really be able to READ the GSD and thoroughly understand prey /defense/ tyhe interaction and how that translates to on field and off field .