For The Masses - Page 6

Part 3

Now BREEDER A by the time his dog has reached 2 years of age has done little to add to the value of his dog if it has no titles on the front of his name.  He has trained his dog for two years with a club and spent $300 on club fees.  He has hopefully at least achieved a SCH title on his dog which cost perhaps after say two or three failures another $300 and then another hundred for the KK1.  If he hasnt show his dog at an SV sanctioned show and didnt get at least a "G" rating, the dog should not be bred.  But if it was, the owner has still has invested less than $1200 including the initial cost of his dog.

Breeder Z on the other hand has invested money (entries, handlers and travel expenses)  in the 3-6,6-9,9-12, 12-18,18-24, and finally in the 2 yr and over titled class.  The dog can not even get a VA his first year unless he has acquired a SCH2 and the following year must have a SCH 3 and a Nachkommen group.  Breeder Z started out having spent $2,000 more for his dog and then invested at least $1,000 in each Sieger show and at least $200 for each regional or landsgruppen show. lets say they showed in a minimum of 2 classes in each age group, thats at least 12 shows(a really small amount) but they have added at least $1200 - $3,000 on to their dogs value.

I know at the last three sieger shows my expense averaged $2,000 each.

In all fairness BREEDER Z has a much higher overhead in his dogs.  His investment in training and competition is at least 5-10 time that of the average breeder of so called "working dogs".  BREEDER Z's puppies have cost him 5-10 times what BREEDER A's dogs did. 

The WDA and USA clubs put on far more working dog events each year than they do the one sieger show.  Yet thousand of dollars come into their coffers for the one sieger show and only hundreds for the other events.  VA dogs have "a" stamped hips just like the working dogs..  VA dogs have Sch titles after their names, they must do the bitework at the sieger shows are they will not be allowed to compete in the confirmation class the following day.  Perhaps, we need to look at humans more closely.

Part 4 to follow

part 4

Humans before they mate, do not check on their future mates hips and other skeletal mass joints.  They care nothing about eye color or even the condition of their future mates eyes at all.  They sure as hell dont ask for a 4 generation genealogical chart do they?  Hmm I wonder if they check to see if the teeth have been fixed(braces), if they are wearing contacts lenses, or even if the hair has been dyed?  Eye makeup, lipstick, a good foundation for the face, and of course those wonderful Victoria bras to enhance the appearance.  Still that is better than say a nose job or other forms of plastic surgery.

My guess is, if you went up behind 95% of the people reading and writing on this forum and shot off a gun, most would be startled(thats a nice word) and show definite signs of discomfort(some might even piss in their pants).  Ever wonder why some kids will never win a beauty contest?

Yet we demand that dog breeders all have perfectly conformed dogs with nerves of steel and the fighting abilities of a pit bull!  Sigh.

Anyhow, I digressed a bit, I'm sorry, but I wanted to say that for a long time. Forty years in German Shepherds and listening to some of the damdest demands from puppie buyers.  95% of the people that come to me to buy a dog havent even read the standard on the breed!

So never question the sanity of why another mans dogs cost so much, thank the "Show breeders" for maintaining the inherent beauty in our breed while still living up to the required temperament criteria.  Keep in mind a lawyer with a "C" average in college, who, passes the bar exam  still has the degree he needs to open an office the same as the guy that had an "A" average.  Theres room for both on this List, but frankly I do place more value on the opinions of those that have accomplished something with their dogs than the opinions of those that have done nothing, in either ring.  Hope this gives you a little more insight.  I've been in Shepherds for 40 years now and I'm still learning.  I find it amazing how some people with less than five years seem to always know so much more than I.  Recently someone who came here to buy a dog told me that he already owned 5 shephers in his life.  between that and all the reading he did on th internet, he was quite knowledgeable and i wasnt going to be able to fool him by selling him a bad dog.  I smiled and told him I read a lot too.  I even recently read how to pull teeth painlessly.  If he believed that reading the websites of dozens of breeders would teach him anything, perhaps he would trust me to rmove one of his teeth.  Painlessly of course.<G>  Reading is fine, but show and tell is always better.  Make any "know it all" back up what they have to say with the trophies they won or the titles they have put on their dogs.  There are more out there than you think  Ignore the "parrots", they only repeat what they read and hear.

Watch out for the bad guys...

I take back the observation that you can read. 

I wrote that my own son is also in Iraq right now.   You got caught in an ugly, publicly stated callous position, and now you want to make it about me instead of what you said.  To you it is "drama", only because you don't have any stake in it and it is not real to you.  It is very real to me.  IF you actually have any relatives serving in the military, you obviously have no feeling for them. 

You are right Don.  I should not take it to heart.  It is too easy for a person to thoughtlessly type out statements to unseen persons and hit enter. 

You are a better person than I, Kenny.

Good post on the value and investment of dogs and breeding, Trexshep.  I read somewhere that most breeders quit breeding after five years.   

Kenny

 I hope all is going well with you and your family (two and four legged) 

May you come home safe and sound for your long battle. May God Bless you.

EK

Kenny,

God's speed to get you home safe and sound to your family. I totally agree with you also. I to had a female that her father was noch. She came out with good hips and I've bred her 4 times without any HD in any of the pups she has had.  If you love your dog the way it sounds like you do,  then I wouldn't care who said what about him. It's your business and no one else's, and you do what you want to with him. I try not to post to often on here as well, because of the threads getting out of hand, and off of the question(s) that it started out with. I do like how Don puts some charactor in it though,lol!!! Feel free to email if you have any questions that I could maybe help you out with.

Be safe!!!

kelly don doesn't put character in it, don is the character in it! his humor has made me laugh more than one occasion.

ek, 20 day's and counting! i'll send the picture you wanted as soon as i get home, beta is doing great.

  trexshep, thanks for the explanation, although i still don't see where that equates into we'll say 4-9 pups a litter, 2500$ each that is 10-22,500$ a litter.so after the money is recuoped, i.e. 1-2 litters, then where does the rest go? cause by then obviously you don't have but about 1/4 the overhead! so after that do the prices drop?  after let's say 4 litters? then what is you your overhead?  humor me here, say you have 4 litters, averaging 8 pups per litter, at 2000$ a pup, that's 64,000$  so where is the overhead now? unless you have 30k invested in each dog and continue to put 30k$ into those dogs each year after? not all breeders are charging that much, i've seen a few, and i mean a handfull that are actually reasonable! but to each their own, it's a FREE country and if they can sell their dogs/puppies for those prices then great! Regardless it has nothing to do with the bashing on the boards here! i mean are any of these bashers actually qualified by the sanctioning bodies to judge another's dog by a picture? how bout the judging of a persons character because you or i say something. it is done all the time here!

I have bought a puppy before, paid good money for him, but due to miscommunications between the breeder and myself, i'll eat half this battle, it was the wrong puppy and not what we wanted! now, there was nothing wrong with him, showline, well bred dog, beautifull red/black! just not what i wanted. i sold him for 1/2 of what i paid for him so that he went the the RIGHT home! i didn't come on here and start a post of being ripped off and the breeders not knowing crap etc.etc.etc!!!! i ate the cost, found him the right and a great home, and the family is very happy with him, and he is happier there! oh well. i figure i did HIM justice, by placing him accordingly! everyone is happy, i didn't lose all of my money, they got a great dog, and he got a great home. does it make me mad, yea. but it won't do any good to start a messageboard battle over whether it was the breeders fault or my own! this isn't judge judy's courtroom is it?

so why is there all this trash talking, this breeder did me wrong, their dogs aren't ''titled'' , their titled but not breed surveyed?so, it's not your dog, your not responsible for it or what it produces? unless that is you sold them the dog, didn't put any restrictions on the registration, then i guess maybe you shouldn't be selling dogs! if i decide to breed all puppies will be on a limited registration, until MY requirements are met! i try to be a very honest person, i'd like to think most of you would be too! but come on, not breeding a dog because they have a2 or a3 or only good or fair hips? if you can afford the best, then great buy them all! but when you breed, make sure you kill all the puppies that aren't the best! since that is the only TRUE way to improve the breed.

sincerely, kenny

Kenny, the most important thing to remember here is that we, like you, come on this board for discussion. Mostly discussion of dogs but sometimes we get a wild ride onto another topic. Anytime you engage in discussions with a large number of people you're going to have things that you vehemently disagree with.  If you are going to do what you're going to do anyway, what's the big yank?

Not Judge Judy's courtroom (but believe me if I ever had to go there I would be sorely pressed not to jump over that bench and snap her scrawny neck like a chicken wing). I believe a lot of people post about bad experiences with a breeder because they don't want anyone else to be suckered for hundreds or thousands of dollars. And face it, this board seems to saturate the GSD community. So if someone is researching a certain breeder they can read the threads and have more to figure into making their own decision.

I don't think anyone is attacking you dog, personally. I think they are all giving their opinion on improving the breed. That's ok. I think it's what your fighting for and we appreciate it.

Stay safe and come home.

Dawgs

Hey Kenny, I will pin that fucker on for you !  How cool would that be, fuckin officers get to do all the best stuff. : )

Sincerely, and recently disgraced, Jeff. LOL

Akveronica60 wrote: Good post on the value and investment of dogs and breeding, Trexshep.  I read somewhere that most breeders quit breeding after five years.   

Response:  I think AKC published that fact some years back.  That is both good and bad.  The breeders that spend a lot of money in trying to purchase expensive dogs, compete with them, then breed them, are usually not equipped to handle all the problems that will follow.  They invest $1,000 for a top stud.  lets for the sake of argument say they have 5 in the litter.  That means in reality, they must charge an additional $200 per puppy over and above what they were expecting to make as a profit.  If their bitch requires a caesarean, that could increase the overhead anywheres from $1200 - 3,000 here in NY.  Divide 5 into those numbers and the cost continues to mount.  While they may have a dog with titles on both ends of its name,  the average pet buyer cant fathom the value. 

I actually had one person say to me on the phone,"I dont know if I'm worthy of owning a dog such as yours.".  I laughed, "I said, if you believe you dont, then you must have a very low opinion of yourself and I don't believe I want one of my dogs living in that kind of environment! I then hung up.  In my opinion, I believe i have the right to have anything I believe is worthy of my interest and hard work to get it.  I dont wish to keep up with the Jones, I want to be MR> JONES and let others try to keep up with me<G>.

1.The BYB's who bought the least expensive dog available is out there breeding their dogs too.  They always claim they have no money so they breed to a male of similiar low quality.  The pups they have are usually little better than mongrols that you can find in a pound.  The papers are merely birth certificates identifying the names of both parents.  Here in NY the quality of a persons dog are easily identified by their asking price.  These dogs are always found for sale here in NY for $500.

Unfortunately for most of the South and southwest, many of their buyer cant find purchasers that will pay top prices for a good dog.  Though I get emails all the time from out of state buyers in the south, its rare I can sell them a dog for the price they would pay here in NY.  I lived in the south for a long time.  Few pet people can rationize their thinking enough to pay $2,000 for a puppy.  Granted I preferred to live away from people then, but many were raised with hunting dogs.  I actually had a hunter in South Carolina allow my shepherd to run deer with his hunting dogs.  Guess its all in how you want to raise them.  Back then(in the 70's) I had to cut my prices in half to sell there from what I was able to get in the Miami area.