Defense drive or Prey drive - Page 6

OK I have about had enough and am ready to go into Spook101 mode. This is a 15 year old kid trying to learn.

Growling and hackles up in a dog over 8-12 months of age is not a good sign. (of course there are exceptions and this is a whole different discussion) but are the beginning outward expression of fear aggression.

Preston--- you know absolutely nothing; zero about the discussion we are having. I am sure you have never worked as a training decoy for any type of successful dog sport trainer ever.

Watson,

I would pay attention to Agar and Workingdawg when it comes to this thread. I looked up an old post on drives where I explained the psychology and outward expression of various drives. This was the best I could do within the confines of a discussion board.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/88500.html#88640

This is a good article from someone who has been in the game a long time.

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/arminhome.html

Here are some more that might help you.

http://www.bvdt.net/dog_training/articles/misc/definitions_of_drives.html

http://www.bvdt.net/dog_training/articles/play/building_toy_or_ball_drive.html

I will try to get together a list of books and videos to help you learn. In your situation this is about the best you can do. One thing that does concern me. I would avoid trying to do any type of "civil" or defense training when you don't know what you are doing yet. I have no idea what the environment and laws are in the Bahamas, but you can quickly create a dangerous dog. You said something about not letting people pet your dog. 99% of the time I tell people to let everyone pet there dog. In your case, I would suggest you let your friends and family pet your dog unconditionally. When you are out walking your dog I would let 1 out of 20 people pet your dog. You want some suspicion but you also want a friendly dog.

 When I was your age, every Wednesday night I would ride my bike to the river. My pet beagle would run with me. We would sit on the levee behind the Sheriff's training facility and watch the police dogs train. I thought that was the coolest thing in the world. There are trainers all over the US that would love to have a young kid with your passion and a willingness to learn.

Keep doing what your doing and try to learn the best you can. I will try and find some more stuff when I have the time. The key to learning is to listen more than you talk and to be able to decipher the knowledge from bullshit. I think your off to a good start.

Maybe my girl and I will have to take a vacation to the Bahamas

QUOTE:

Not sure what this really means, but lets face it we can all tell him the same thing a hundred times and it will all fall to shit the first time he tries to work a dog.

Only way to do this is to go out and do this. It is a shame that he is limited by the confines of an island, but doesn't mean there are no dogs there. Get a job, save money,go to france and learn how to decoy. If you have passion, you will get good training, and provided you have some physical ability, you could certify.

I would go with ring over Sch, as once you are doing well as a ring decoy, you will be able to run around half asleep and catch Sch dogs. LOL

That is your way out.

Some defensive drive for you?  Tell me what you think....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6aFX45vUXQ

I think you all try ,,as myself to share some nice info -- but can we admit .. you cannot learn protection work  in order for you to be proficient in it, maybe one can get  an intro understanding ... but you cannot pick up whay you need to know by videos, books and certainly a web site .. somepointers . philosophies , shared thoughts .points of view ..yes. .... let's face it .. one should never do decoy work unless it has learned all the fundamentals .. the consequences .. you will ruin the dog let aslone perhaps make it a danger.....eventually to  get another one, only to ruin that one .. to get another ...only to ruin that one too .. maybe by the 20th dog .. you might have learned al little . experience will be a teacher ..one way or another

Nice post Alphapup...

It is very easy for me to tell when a dog is being civil or in prey mode by watching them. I have seen several dogs over the years with low levels of the nervous system threshold and they were worthless as protection dogs. They did not sense any threat and hence had a very low fear level and did not respond to threat when needed. Have you ever seen sport dogs that were almost impossible to stimulate unless they were on the training field and saw equipment? At the same time if i ran at them with a stick they would tuck and run.

GSDFAN..don't worry about offending me..if you think I am wrong or being stupid just say so; I am not a politically correct person and don't care if the person I argue with is either.

I like people who feel strongly and don't mind defending their position, besides I am not scared of your words?  But then maybe I am so that's why I react aggressively to defend my position?

WOW. That is a keeper video simply for the amount of things shown by the dog. Didn't see defense drive though, saw nerve and avoidance and curiousity and prey and suspicion, unsurety.

Is this an older video where maybe we can see the dog as of today???

Nope... only a month ago... sorry.  My first dog for the sport.  As a young pup she wasn't suspicious of strangers... it may be age related or she may be showing her true colors.  She loves wrestling with and winning the tug but has never played "that game" before... as seen in video.  The trainer said she was in defense... one thing she pointed out was the my dog was making eye contact with her instead of watching the tug.  But I felt she did good for her first day.

I liked that she ended up the session better than the beginning.

Jeff, wrong, I was not bs'ing you.  The GSD I was referring to did take agitators down on more than one occasion he would hit them so hard in the chest running and jumping at them as he would bite.  In fact at a local sch club he hit an agitator so hard he knocked him down, knocked his face mask off and then stood on his chest guarding him.  This was with no training. Another example, when visiting Adam Kuhn one time when he had leased a sable VA male from germany, my friend  was told not to stare the dog down (don't challenge him).  He did and the dog ran at him, jumped at him and hit him in the chest knocking him down and then stiood on him growling until called off.  Then he was friendly after that. The dog was toptally courageous and could not experience fear.  The first dog of mine I referred to was untrained except for obediance and truly could not experience fear.  When exposed to gunfire a few feet from him he would turn and run at it.  Yet he was not a "deadhead" but very much in touch with what was going on and ready to react to any threat quickly.  He had the look of eagles in his eyes and exuded complete confidence.  The second dog I referred to I now own has a schII and was SG1 (I imported him at two years old out of the puppy classes).  He is incapable of experiencing fear, and yet is perceptually in touch at all times.  This dog also has "fire in the eyes" or the "look of eagles" and exudes confidence.  Larry Filo once bought a top sch dog in germany that on more than one occasion hit an agitator so hard he spun him around and took him down.  I have seen this on film.  I have no reason to exxagerate or bs.  I do not sell puppies and I have nothing to gain.  I truly believe that many of you are confusing a defense reaction with fear.  You think a defense reaction must be fear based.  I completely disagree and believe that one of the things that makes GSDs so valuable is their ability to sense a real threat and reaspond toit with progressive, appropriate force based on confidence, courage and territorial preservation instinct. I sincerely believe that too many GSD working lines have been bred to produce fear ridden, hyperactive, single use GSDs that are highly incorrect in temperament.  Let's atke another example of a GSD with total courage and incapable of experiencing fear:  VA Utz von Hirschel, imported by Kirchenwald Kennels.  Don't try to tell me that this dog was ever afraid or anyone or anything.  He was one of the most sound, hardest GSDs ever brought into the USA. Or take V Lenon du val D'anzin, also imported into the USA.  Don't even try to claim this dog could experience fear in any way.  I know what he was capable of and was very much in touch with his surroundings and watchful at all times.  Or take the toughest single GSD ever imported into the USA,  Ufo Fiemerick, brought in by Adam Kuhns.  This GSD was afarid of no one or anything.  He was truly a gangster dog and was as scary a GSD as ever their was (probably had a feral nature).  He had total courage but faulty temperament in that he would do anything to dominate and win including attack without notice or from the back at a moment the agitator was weak.  So lack of fear is an important factor, but only one of those necessary in a GSD with correct, normal temperament.  The belief that a certain amount of fear in a GSD is necessary to make him perform in sch correctly is myth and is self serving myth at that. Who wants any GSD that experiences fear?  Not I, but if some want that, then its a free country, so breed for it and acquire it.

Not trying to take things OT - but I'm a new helper and would like someone to evaluate my evaluation of the helper work - which I found to be lacking.  I'm not trying to trash anyone, rather increase my own ability - so here is my "read."  There was not nearly enough prey work.  Neither the object (rag) nor the helper moved with any urgency or compelling moves to stimulate prey drive.  The helper did not reward the bark or forward movement of the dog nearly enough or quickly enough for the dog to make the connection that it could "drive" the action with its behavior vs. just reacting to the "weird stranger."  The dog was not made to work for the prey object nor frustrated with misses - in fact it looked like the prey object was being "fed" to the dog.  While you couldn't see the helper during a good portion of the video, when you could see her, she was not showing "weakness" when the dog showed strength.  She also made at least 2 presentations (her run ups) almost directly at the dog and not on an arc - so if defense was shown, it quite likely was stimulated by the helper charging in.  The same thing happened during the final bite, the dog missed and the helped turned frontal to the dog and started waving the rag around.  The setup was wrong, there should have been a blind (or 2) closer to the pole, so they could be better utilized.

With regard to the dog, she did seem to finish stronger - which h I would expect for a first session on the pole.  I'm not sure I saw defense for the most part, I think it was confusion about what was going and the line/harness/pole.  She barked strong in the beginning, ears were erect, and tail wagging, bark was high pitched, no growling.  She was happy to engage the helper during the first run by and even attempted to grip the prey object convincingly.  It was only after the helper attempted to some "weakness" by going to her knees, feeding the rag to her (tossing it in) that the dog backed up.  The defense (hiding behind handler) was obvious at first but was gone later in the clip - to me that suggests that if it were true defense she is just green and "thinks a little too much" and as she becomes more aware of the game and her "power" (in relation to the helper showing weakness to her) she will become stronger.  Also, the helper went from being "weak" to standing up but not moving away, so she became "strong" again while not having moved away from the dog – all while the dog was not being distracted with running with the prey.  When she ran behind the handler the first time was that defense or her just attempting to "hide her prey?"  The only time she did it was when she had the prey in her possession…
 
  She showed me possible obedience later in the when she backed up and "sat" next to handler - possibly offering behaviors for the prey reward? 

Finally, was the handler getting in the dogs head too much and the helper not enough?  I heard a lot "good girls" for some half hearted barking - could the barking have stimulated by the helper with frustration, teaching the dog that the reward for a strong bark was prey movement, prey capture or weak helper (dog learns reward for behavior vs. handler "telling" it is good...)

I'm nor suggested a super strong dog - but for the first time on the pole was there any othere clear avoidance outside the aftermath of the first grip?

Why is a 13m/o dog working on a rag and not a pillow?

Any thoughts on these comments? (again no intent to hurt anyone’s feelings - just trying to get better myself...)

-Calvin