bible is metaphor or fact?? - Page 1

i got this from a xian writer; i am so confused??

 

"... a literal interpretation of Genesis has been considered viable since Christianity's inception.  For instance, Augustine of Hippo, one of the most influential writers in Christian history, openly favored viewing Genesis 1 allegorically.  While he ultimately accepted much of it at face value, he famously stated that if new information were to arise, Christians should adjust their interpretations of Genesis accordingly.  And this was in the late 300s/early 400s CE.  Origen lived a century earlier and espoused the same thing.  Other major Christian writers throughout history made similar comments supporting non-literal interpretation of Genesis 1. 
Allegorical interpretations of Genesis^Wiki
http://biologos.org/questions/early-interpretations-of-genesis


"So, it's pretty clear that the emphasis on a literal interpretation of Genesis is new and that non-literal interpretation of Genesis has been accepted since Day 1.  Which brings us to the final question: should we assume that the original text was meant to be taken literally at the time it was written?  No.

As I pointed out in my prior post, Genesis 1 has a genre.  Specifically, it is considered to be "antiquarian history", a type of literature telling of the first appearance of humans, the stories of ancestors and heroes, and the origins of culture, cities and so forth[. . .]they did not distinguish between myth, legend, and facts.^Wiki  The original author and readers would have been aware of this, since [t]he narratives in Genesis 1–2 were not the only creation myths in ancient Israel, and the complete biblical evidence suggests two contrasting models^Wiki.  In other words, the original author and readers would have been aware of several competing creation myths circulating at the time, making it quite obvious that there was not one universally accepted set of literal events.

Furthermore, scholarship on the subject gives us a pretty good idea of why these particular myths were chosen.  Not surprisingly, it had absolutely nothing to do with the literal events and everything to do with creating an argument against Babylonian polytheism.  So the stories were likely never meant to be taken literally at all; they were meant to champion monotheism and denounce polytheism.
Genesis creation narrative^Wiki
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1332

So yeah, I stand by my position that Genesis 1 was likely never intended to be taken literally.

I disagree, I think it is to be taken literally.  The whole Bible is, to not diminishes Gods power, and honesty.

I know no one, watches video's, but I found this one interesting concerning dinosoaurs and the lies the world is telling our children in schools. I just ask, that you don't debunk it unless you watch it, all of it.

 

 

 

RS, I started watching your video earlier in the day, but I went to pick flowers with my grandchildren, so I'm just getting back to it now.  I'm going to watch it from the beginning again and I will watch it all the way through.  I probably got 1/4 of the way before and everything this man said to that point was dishonest ----> every single thing.  I'm going to give you a tip: Honest videos do not disable comments.  The reason that the comments are disabled is because all of these claims have been shown to be false, over and over and over again.  People post links to real scientific evidence that these people don't want their "followers" to read, they might learn something!  Read something that's actually scientific (and no, National Geographic is not a peer reviewed scientific journal, that's one small untruth in this video) and learn what critical thinking really is.  This is dishonesty and if you have to be dishonest to prove your point, well...

RS, won't comment cos i haven't watched it yet. back to the topic tho it appears that the xian forefathers did not take a literal version of the bible and for most of it's existence the most followers  considered it allegory, as shown in the links. the literatists view is a very recent phenomena and appears to be a minority position. the catholics in fact "wrote" or at least published the original bible in the form we have used for the last 2000 years. others have made changes.

 

so are the xian forefathers all wrong and most mainstream xians for most of the life of the bible as we know it all wrong?

 

here is an excerpt;

 

Church historians on allegorical interpretation of Genesis[edit]

The literalist reading of some contemporary Christians maligns the allegorical or mythical interpretation of Genesis as a belated attempt to reconcile science with the biblical account. They maintain that the story of origins had always been interpreted literally until modern science (and, specifically, biological evolution) arose and challenged it. This view is not the consensus view, however, as demonstrated below:

According to Rowan Williams: "[For] most of the history of Christianity there's been an awareness that a belief that everything depends on the creative act of God, is quite compatible with a degree of uncertainty or latitude about how precisely that unfolds in creative time."^[4]

Some religious historians consider that Biblical literalism came about with the rise of Protestantism; before the Reformation, the Bible was not usually interpreted in a completely literal way. Fr. Stanley Jaki, a Benedictine priest and theologian who is also a distinguished physicist, states in his Bible and Science:

 

Insofar as the study of the original languages of the Bible was severed from authoritative ecclesiastical preaching as its matrix, it fueled literalism... Biblical literalism taken for a source of scientific information is making the rounds even nowadays among creationists who would merit Julian Huxley's description of 'bibliolaters.' They merely bring discredit to the Bible as they pile grist upon grist on the mills of latter-day Huxleys, such as Hoyle, Sagan, Gould, and others. The fallacies of creationism go deeper than fallacious reasonings about scientific data. Where creationism is fundamentally at fault is its resting its case on a theological faultline: the biblicism constructed by the [Protestant] Reformers.^[5]

VK4 Wrote: So yeah, I stand by my position that Genesis 1 was likely never intended to be taken literally.

 

VK4 believes in empiricists claims that all knowledge is gained and verified by the senses, or that all knowledge is limited to observation. In the most basic form, VK4’s empiricist claims that "Seeing believes. But my question to VK4 by which of your senses did you come to know that all knowledge is verified by the senses?

VK4's WORLDVIEW Since proving a universal negative, that there is no God, would be impossible to do for anybody unless they were God, VK4 have strayed from the definition of his worldview. Whereas 'lacking God belief,' falls short of the historic definition of atheism, it is sufficient for exposing the failures of all atheistic beliefs. Bible claims that God created everything in six literal days, not millions or billions of years; and no professor of Hebrew will tell you that the days in Genesis means anything other than 24 hour days, they might not believe that but they know that is what the Genesis teaches, the book clearly teaches the days of Genesis are normal days, some philosophers may say does the word “yom” mean you know day could be long like day of the Lord. There is one reference out of 1800 hundred times "yom” used, always means a day. There are 3 meaning of the word day, 24 hours day. Jesus said are their 12 hours in a day that is the day light portion of the day. And then it says in the day of the Lord, now is that talking about long period of time or is that also just one day, I don’t know, I think that is just one day also. But certainly when it says evening and morning the first day, the second day, there is no reason to say these days other than 24 hour days just like we have today. No verses in the Bible where the word “yom” is used indicate other than 24 hour day. But certainly VK4 still denies the God that he knows exists and deliberately states Genesis was never intended to be taken literally.

"VK4 believes in empiricists claims that all knowledge is gained and verified by the senses, or that all knowledge is limited to observation."

Hey Shtal, how else to you verify anything?  I'll give you a hint, it rests on putting your "faith" in other people.  And, sadly, you have put all of yours into dishonest people.

vk wrote, shtal can't read;

 

the whole thing was a quote from a committed christian, well studied, well researched with supporting links. seems shtal you are a minority view in terms of xianity and your view is not shared by the majority of the forefathers, theologians, scholars and believers  of christianity.

shatl your opinion is nothing more than that, it is a minority opinion amongst christains evidently and a recent opinion not shared by most christians.

the rest of your incoherent irrational garbage does nothing to refute the majority christian view.

all shtal has is his own version and opinion on theology mainly shared by frauds.

 

this was not a thread about atheism fool, it was a thread about what beleivers believe. i guess you had no answer to the question so you had to make up a question you had aan answer to, try stay on topic.

 

I no longer come to this forum as often as I was before and I no longer click on many threads as I was before and I have no desire having confrontations with no good VK4, but my position is the very obvious literal scriptural position that everybody would get it if they just read the Bible, God created everything in six days, 24 hours days just like we known today. Any interpretation other than that - requires a leader to tell you what it means and you end up with a cult, I believe that’s what some among the believers. The teaching that requires theologians, scholars to tell us what the Bible says and you establish a position authority for yourself. I’ll get a nervous about that. The Bible says very clearly God made everything in six days, there was no death before sin, the flood of the days of Noah, was a world wide flood, completely destroyed the world about 4,400 hundred years ago and I see no scientific reason and certainly no scriptural reason to believe anything other than what the obvious plain teaching of scripture is. You have to make distinguish between the record of nature and science and the words of the Bible and theology. Theology and science can definitely clash and contradict – because human interpretivism is involved. But God created the universe, he is the one who inspired the words of the Bible, it’s a God that can’t lie. The record of nature can never contradict the words of the Bible, what where we do see contradictions between science and theology we to look for human misinterpretations. We need to look for human misinterpretation and so what other “theologians and scholars” does; they look for human misinterpretation of the Bible as oppose looking for human misinterpretation of the scientific evidence. Many of them are quick to jump on some idea that maybe the Bible didn’t really mean what it clearly teaches and they already decided and been cripple by the education because they think universe is billions of years old, I mean that’s a given in there mind, that’s a inflexible. And that’s not logical to come to a Bible study that way, the fact is they start with some presuppositions.

I also gave this example before; you pick a spot where nobody heard of Bible and you pick out five thousand people and say read this please. Zero out of five thousand are going to come back and say the days of Genesis means long periods of time like millions of years. Some “theologians and scholars” if you realize how much doctrine they are hanging on this one idea: they already come to a conclusion, the universe is billions of years old and now they are going to try to force it for Bible to say that or that the days of Genesis could not be literal six days of creation.

 "no good VK4" - judgement, bible says don't judge

"...you end up with a cult" - the catholic church?

"believe anything other than what the obvious plain teaching of scripture is." - like give all your possessions away, stone unruly children, rape women and then keep them as slaves, kill babies, genocide, god can be beaten in a fight by people on iron chariots ......

"God created the universe" - proof?, cos the bible says so, LMAO.

shtal how are they're both trinitarians ans non trinitarians and they both claim to be correct? not a small problem for you?

"he is the one who inspired the words of the Bible, it’s a God that can’t lie."

except when god lies....

"Divine Lie 1
Yahweh has all 400 of his holy prophets lie to King Ahab so God can get this king killed in battle:

"Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Shall I go against Ramoth-gilead to battle or shall I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” (1 Kings 22: 6)


Divine Lie 2
Jehoshaphat knows God has His prophets lying to Ahab and tells him to send for the prophet Micaiah who  confirms that God is indeed a lair:

 "Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left.  “The LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. “Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’  “The LORD said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’  “Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.” (1 Kings 22: 19 – 23)


Divine Lie 3
The Prophet Jeremiah accuses God of being a deceiver and a liar:

"Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the throat.” (Jeremiah 4: 10)


Divine Lie 4
Jeremiah again accuses God of lying:

 "O LORD, You have deceived me and I was deceived; You have overcome me and prevailed. I have become a laughingstock all day long; everyone mocks me." (Jeremiah 20:7)


Divine Lie 5
 God will lie to anyone He doesn't like so God can have a excuse to kill them:

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (Ezekiel 14: 9)


Divine Lie 6
God lies to Adam about the Tree of Knowledge:

“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Genesis 2: 17)

God’s lie is further exposed when the talking snake tells Eve the truth.

“The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”  (Genesis 3: 4)


Divine Lie 7
God lies to cover-up his lies:

“He who practices deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who speaks falsehood shall not maintain his position before me.” (Psalm 101: 7)


Divine Lie 8
God lies about his holiness to cover up more of his lies:

“There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:

Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood,

A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,

A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers." (Proverbs 6: 16 -19)


Divine Lie 9
Jesus lies to his apostles and lies as a sales pitch to get converts.

“Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."  (John 14: 11 – 14)


Divine Lie 10
Jesus lies about his Second Coming:

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16: 28)

 

Divine Lie 11 Jesus lies about both the Jewish people and Satan:
  “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”  (John 8:44)  

[Comment on the Book of Job:

If any apologists wants to claim that Satan (and not God) in the Book of Job is both a murder and a liar, then prove your case.  Job's family clearly states that it was God who did all the harm to him, his wealth and his family: Then came there to him all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought on him. (Job 42: 11)
This fact of theodicy is first stated by Job’s in his opening statement of the book: "He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."  (Job 1: 21)

Biblical facts prove that Satan never murders or lies! ]   Divine Lie 12 Jesus lies about the amount of and power of faith:     “He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17: 20)    "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21: 8)

 

 

 VK4 Wrote:  "no good VK4" - judgement, bible says don't judge

Then stop judging me...okay?

 

VK4 Wrote: "God created the universe" - proof?, cos the bible says so LMAO.

Question? If there is no God, where did the universe come from? How do you justify universal, immaterial, unchanging laws in your version of the universe? What gives humans dignity over any other advanced primordial slime? Why do you attend the funeral of a human, but not have a funeral for a fly or a virus or a cancerous cell? What about moral relativism? You see moral relativists believe that morality is not universal but relative to the culture. In other words, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Since you do not claim objective truth, why should anyone believe you? Question? Is it objectively true that morality is relative? Pragmatists believe that all they require is success in achieving their goals to determine what is right. Whatever has been successful in controlling their environment is the chief concern of pragmatists. What are the proper goals in your life vk4?