Handler aggression - Page 1

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Shawnicus

by Shawnicus on 28 October 2016 - 18:10

I personally don't respect a real working dog without some degree of handler aggression , and dominance idgf type of attitude and that's what I prefer , anyone else agree ?


susie

by susie on 28 October 2016 - 19:10

1. You need to differ between a dog you raised by yourself and a dog you bought as an adult
2. You need to differ between an experienced and an unexperienced handler

In dogs I raise by myself I do not tolerate any handler aggression, whereas I am able to respect handler aggression towards me ( a stranger ) in an adult dog.

by adhahn on 29 October 2016 - 17:10

I find it interesting to observe or listen to peoples opinions toward "Handler Aggression".

My personal observation so far has been that there is a notable difference between male and female handlers when it comes to the subject.

I've raised a dog from 8 weeks on who would climb right up the leash when frustrated or angry. I did not allow it to go on unchecked, but to an extent I tolerated it, until the dog was mature. Then I explained to him that he was all grown up, the juvenile antics were going to stop and he would show appropriate respect. Of course I also knew that in spite of our come to Jesus meetings, the dog still had to potential to back talk if pushed hard enough. So, I suppose a cynic might claim that I still allowed to dog to call the shots. I don't see it that way; I see it more a matter of mutual understanding and respect.

The point of that bit of information is that people have different levels of tolerance for so-called Handler Aggression and different ways of dealing with it. Is it a temperament trait some dogs are born with? I think so, but like many other traits it can be capped (or allowed to flourish) through the dogs environment.

This is anecdotal and limited information, but I've encountered male handlers in person and online who have the same basic attitude towards handler aggression as I do. Kick the dog's butt if he's simply being a jerk, but otherwise give the dog some respect.

Again, anecdotal and limited to a small sample size, but female handlers are much less tolerant towards any "handler aggression". They tend to address the first signs immediately and hammer it out of the dog ASAP. When I say hammer it out I don't necessarily mean by using force, I mean that they make it a high priority to "fix" the "problem". They simply have next to zero tolerance for it.

There isn't necessarily any differences in the dogs themselves, but there is a difference in what handlers will tolerate and how they work with/around the trait in a dog. With that said, I do know of dogs that were retired or re-homed by female handlers due to aggression they couldn't "fix" and weren't going to tolerate. The ones that were re-homed went to male handlers.

This is not a sexist post and I'm sure that there are cross gender examples showing the opposite of my personal observations, blah, blah, yada, yada. The point I'm trying to address with the OP is that what the dog is born with is only part of the equation. The other part is what's tolerated or allowed by a handler; which can be based on many factors including experience, personal priorities, etc.

Mithuna

by Mithuna on 29 October 2016 - 18:10

I hand feed my dog regularly and also get equally regular nips on my finger/hand from her teeth...but I accept as part of what I choose to do ( hand feed my dog ); kind of love it.

Its much less scary than the male I recently hosted who would take food from you whether or not you wanted to give to him. Once he detected that food was in your hand he would take it, even climbing all over you in a very pushy/domineering way. I did not raise that male. I was a total stanger to him. He had already bitten his first owner and the current owner told me from upfront that I SHOULD EXPECT ( either sooner or later ) that the dog would try to bite me. After he left my care he bit his original breeder, but they love him and willnot give him up.


susie

by susie on 29 October 2016 - 18:10

Adhahn, why do you "tolerate" a behavior in a teenage dog that you don´t want to see in an adult dog?
Doesn´t make sense to me ( but I am a "female" handler ...).
Your so called "come to Jesus" meetings may be able to break a dog, and that´s not good ( again: you need to differ between a dog you raise by yourself and an adult dog you have to deal with ).

In my world of dog ownership ( I prefer males ) I am my dog´s god, in my shadow and with my help the dog may develop into the strongest dog on earth, but I am its leader, and there is no revolution tolerated or allowed.

It´s about respect, and it´s about old fashioned hierarchy - as a responsible handler I have to know what´s best for me and my dog. I am the one who decides - not my dogs.

I was always able to depend on my dogs, no matter the cicumstances - I wouldn´t like to "discuss" any of my decisions with my dogs in situations me ( the brain ) and my dogs ( the power ) have to react within a second...

by gsdstudent on 29 October 2016 - 18:10

midhuna = seancircus? pot stirring

An uncalled for very impolite comment   Leave these on your keyboard not here.

Western Rider


Mithuna

by Mithuna on 29 October 2016 - 19:10

Most descriptions of handler aggression I read on here seem to imply that they occur only when the dog is in drive. Can a dog be handler aggressive when not in drive? any examples?

susie

by susie on 29 October 2016 - 19:10

For example:
You are fostering an adult dog, telling him to "down-stay" on command ( no distractions involved ).
A "strong" dog may not follow your command, and in case you try to force him ( physically ) to listen to the command, you have to deal with the outcome.
Works with "down" first and foremost, because most dogs remember this command as a kind of pressure and/or submission.
"Sit" for most dogs is fun, almost no problems at that point...


by adhahn on 29 October 2016 - 21:10

susie- I raised that dog with the hopes he would be both a sport dog and have some legitimate civil fighting ability. I made the decision to allow *some* so-called handler aggression until he matured. He was born with the willingness to use his teeth to overcome human interference and I didn't want to ruin that .

That trait must be shaped and brought into control but I don't want to imprint on a young dog the idea that humans are some sort of superbeings that cannot be beaten. Is that an silly and foolish thing to be concerned about? I don't know. You only get one chance to imprint/raise a puppy so I try to stack the odds in my favor.

Just to make sure we're on the same page; as an example perhaps the dog trying air scent and you want him to track. You both get frustrated, the dog has a scent and is pulling but you want him to focus on the ground. You try to restart the dog and he's slow to down. In your irritation you get a little too rough which pisses off the dog. The kind of "handler aggression" that results in a couple punctures and some bruising. It's not a situation where the dog is trying to tear your face off or harm you, it's just a matter of the dog saying "I'll work for you but I won't put up with that". With a young dog I simply get him under control with the least amount of drama possible, take a deep breath and try to carry on as if nothing happened.

Once the dog has matured and had a chance to 'fight' and 'defeat' some decoys then I figure it's not going to harm his psyche to impress upon the dog that temper tantrums towards me are not acceptable. At that point I'm not as worried about ruining his belief that he can use his teeth to defeat a human. He's just got to accept that I'm a crappy handler he must put up with. (with the understanding on my part that because I've tolerated it in the past and allowed the trait to cement in the dogs brain; if I'm grossly unfair he's still probably going to let me know).

I might be willing to put up with scrapes and bruises for nothing. It might not make any difference at all in an adult dog. I don't know, but the bottom line for me is that I'm willing to tolerate it "just in case". Other people have different ideas, different priorities and different tolerance levels.

Back to the OP, just because you don't see a dog show any "handler aggression" that doesn't mean it wouldn't be there with a different handler and just because a dog is allowed some handler aggression doesn't mean it's a stronger dog. It could just be something a handler tolerated in a mediocre dog.


susie

by susie on 29 October 2016 - 21:10

"That trait must be shaped and brought into control but I don't want to imprint on a young dog the idea that humans are some sort of superbeings that cannot be beaten. Is that an silly and foolish thing to be concerned about? I don't know. You only get one chance to imprint/raise a puppy so I try to stack the odds in my favor."

While training/raising a working dog the dog should never believe that humans as a whole are "superbeings", but the dog should believe that its handler is at least Super(wo)man. I made the experience that a dog that trusts me 100% is willing to work for me, is able to believe in my decisions, and as a result shows a lot more strength ( because it knows I will back it up ).

We start to train bitework with very young puppies, that said, they learn to distinguish very soon. They don´t loose any traits, but learn to focus on the goal.

Tracking is not the best example - in the best case the dog learns to track because it is able to satisfy itself. You can´t correct something the dog hasn´t learned ( knows what to do ).

After all, 2 handlers = at least 3 opinions... only the result counts.

" Back to the OP, just because you don't see a dog show any "handler aggression" that doesn't mean it wouldn't be there with a different handler and just because a dog is allowed some handler aggression doesn't mean it's a stronger dog. It could just be something a handler tolerated in a mediocre dog."

More than true...
 






 


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