Pedigree,"working dog",Help REQUESTED - Page 1

I am coming to you German Shepherd breeders,show,competiters,and lovers , to request some Constructive Advice concerning the breeding of my dogs. NOTICE, I asked for constructive , not destructive , advice. I, as you, are hoping to improve, My German Shepherd dogs. I am not looking for insults or praise, just honewst opinions, and advice. I have sat back often and read peoples posts throughout several groups, and beleive me, the remarks and opinions I have encountered are more vicious(in some instances) are more vicious and hurtful than any dog I have come upon. I have mostly solid black dogs, short and plush coats. I also have blk.& tan, saddle, sable, and yes blue(yes, I said the dreaded Blue). I have bred a few litters out of my dogs. I guarantee the health, hips and temperment of my pups( I've had the same lines for 20 years). In my dogs pedigrees there are names I have seen repeated throughout the Seiger winners.(my dream is a Bad Bolle male) I have Pirol von , Karly and Quando amongst other)Arminius, There are several Weinerau"sWildersteigerland, Fleisherheim, Flex Modenessor,Jago, etc... There is Steppenwolf with Shiloh(pre 90's), Weichental. All dogs with the exception of Shiloh dogs come with, DDr, Sch1, Sch2,Sch3,FH,PSH,FHOS CD and more. I have mostly standard size shepherds, but I do hav a few Large dogs, One male BIG T is 31 inches at the shoulder, plush coat(no doubt shiloh)He is a MASSIVE DOG. I don't think I have EVER seen a Shepherd that big. My dogs are certainly BEAUTIFUL!!!Willing to provide pics if asked. They have no problem herding up the horses or making a 20 mile trail ride. They are fearless and LOYAL. My Blue male is Big, Beautiful, BLUE and Shiloh. He is also Fleisherheim, Quando Arminius,Jago,Weinerau,Wildersteigerland, and most important wonderful dog. Producing TOP DOGS is my goal. I'm asking for advice, suggestions etc.I'm looking for suggestions, opinions and advice. Leave the criticizing elsewhere unless YOU ABSOLUTLY MUST!!! Any suggestions on a complimentary line crossing would be GREATLY appreciated.

Would love to see pics of your blue and his pedigree, you can email me at vomveiderheiss@nemont.net Now that you have a blue, you must try a liver, they are stunning too, especially the solids,and sables, will share some pics with you as well. I have blue carriers and will hopefully be adding a liver this year. Hope to chat with you. Kari

Constructive Advice?? Neuter your blue and Shiloh shepherd, post the pedigree's of your other dogs and we'll go from there. I'm trying to be as nice as possible:-)...really. Destructive advice?? I know where you can get a "panda shepherd" maybe you could breed it to your blue and get a "blue panda"...wouldn't that be the coolest!!

Okay all kidding aside... You are asking for pedigree help. There is much more to matching up lines and pedigrees than randomly throwing out a handful of names in 5 someod generations of a pedigree and asking someone to comment or help, its not possible...which is why you should post the complete pedigrees, naming who's who (sire, dam, grand...) are they registered in the database? It's really unclear to me where this "shiloh" comes in with your GSD's, as far as I know they're a completely different breed, which may have started with GSD's but everything I've read says the Shiloh Shepherd has been mixed with other breeds to make them more MASSIVE...which btw is NOT something a GSD should be proud of...GSD's are a medium to large size breed NOT XL, Giant or super sized. They are a working breed, their size greatly affects their athleticism, agility health and longevity (especially working longevity). Anyhoo is this "part" Shiloh you speak of have AKC papers? Perhaps you are using the term Shiloh incorrectly to describe this dogs' size or coat length? Just curious.

I am on my way to my sisters to pick up the pedigree. The Shiloh in my lines is prior to what I can see the Shiloh was put out as a seperate breed(pre 90"s) I have been trying to research the Shiloh. Actually the Shiloh appears on the Flex V Blauen Modenessor female I have, on the mothers side. She also has Pirol von Arminius, Dunga v Weilachtal, Schh3,FH, than comes in Gary's Steppen-Wolf v Shiloh and Ch. Campaigners Gunsmoke. My gog was born in 1994. I really am seeking sound advice for breeding better dogs. Every pup I have sold, I get follow up e-mails and calls as to what a great dog the buyer feels they have.(It was a Shiloh search and rescue that found the missing scout in N.Carolina, so they can't be that bad).I will post my full pedigree when I get back plus some pics. I have sable pups that look identical to the pups in one of your ads.

Okay, I get it. It is likely just a kennel name or place "v Shiloh" or "of Shiloh", not necessarily meaning this dog was a Shiloh Shepherd. This dog Gary's Steppen-wolf v Shiloh WF033117 is listed by AKC to be a German shepherd, therefore purebred GSD, therefore NOT a "Shiloh Shepherd" at all. Not saying the Shiloh is good or bad its just NOT a GSD...Its' a completely different breed which is NOT recognized by the AKC, I was just confused how one could be in your dogs pedigree. Those ads were posted for a friend because he has dial up access, check out the website though, I did all the graphic design, collages and pedigrees:-) Here's my boy: http://andymalyvah.tripod.com Regards

Hi Kit, it's great that you are seeking advice on how to improve your breeding methods. The purpose of breeding is to improve the breed. Anything else gained is a bonus. The objective should not be to make a living from breeding. Kit the formula has been laid out for you. You must educated yourself on the breed. Much of the information is on the internet. Start with learning the origin of the breed and for what purpose and criteria for selection was used. You must learn and know the FCI standard for the GSD. Not the AKC standard. The size for males and females, weight for males and females, permisable/allowable colors, correct ear size and set, allowable eye colors and much more are covered in the FCI standard. Wether you like it or not if you are going to breed GSD's and want to be concidered seriously you MUST learn schutzhund. This is the working standard which evaluates dogs to be suitable for breeding. There are other working titles to which I PERSONALLY like and WOULD concider acceptable. GSD fan was right. Get rid of the Shilohs and Blues. They are NOT GSD'S. Don't even think about breeding the all white one's either. Also learn the what it means to kull a litter. Breeding GSD's is about improving the breed. You must learn what line breeding means. You must learn not just what the dogs names are in the pedigree but how the dogs performed. Just because a dog has a sch 3 it does not mean they will fit into your breeding program. Breeding females are as important as the studs. Maybe more because they raise the pups for 8 weeks. Objectively look at your female, and find a stud that will improve her short comings, physically and in the performance arena. If you really want to do this you have to concider yourself to be on a quest. The quest is to learn as much about the GSD as you can. 95 percent of your knowledge about the true GSD will not be found by asking questions to the members of this bulliten board. The board is hear to advise not mentor. Kyle

Well said Kyle!

Okay after looking into this Shiloh thing (briefly) yes the original breed used were oversized AKC German Shepherds. Therefore your dog does come from the original Shiloh stock, but maintained its lineage under German Shepherds and the AKC when the breed founder swiched the "Shiloh Shepherd" over to a different registry. Another words after switching to the Rare breed registry they no longer papered Shiloh's with AKC, but likely some progeny of these dogs continued to breed as AKC GSD's. Considering this dog Gary's Steppen-wolf v Shiloh is listed in here http://www.newzionshilohs.org/Special/special_shilohs.htm proves he was from the original stock that were considered both purebred AKC German Shepherds as well as "Shiloh Sheperds".

Yes, that's correct, GSDfan. The name of the breed founder's kennel was 'Shiloh' and she originally bred AKC GSD's. Then, like a lot of us, she got upset with the route the American Shepherd was taking, and started to breed her own dogs without the over-angulation and other faults the American breds were beginning to show. Eventually she realized she had to make it a separate breed to keep it from getting diluted with the AKC dogs. At that point she was free to bring in other dogs, one being a Leonberger Shepherd (Artus). Her dogs are now under the Rare Breed registry. Too big for my liking, but she's going the right route in very thorough testing to weed out inherited problems like bad hips and elbows.