Is civil agitation a lost art? - Page 1

I was reading my old Bill Koehler book the other night. While I usually point him out as a great trainer in his day , who's methods are now outdated, I began to think......

I have not seen real defensive agitation as demonstrated in Koehler's book for a long time.

My first mentor taught me civil agitation in this manner; big dramatic, over-the top body gestures and acting. My second, taught me to use the table for aggression and fight. I see Sch trainers use frustration, agitation over equipment, and the whip. So my question is......

Do we still need the over-dramatic acting of the old style of civil aggitation? Are we losing anything by abandoning it? I think perhaps we are.

 Is it a lost an art or has training just evolved? In today's use of the table, frustration, etc  is our training better or have we just gotten lazy? ( I know I have) Are Our dogs better, more balanced, both, or are we just training for points? Are we losing something or just evolving into something different? 

And I have another question. Could someone please define 'civil' as used in the sense above? It obviously means something quite different that its usual meaning (polite, decent, as in "He was very civil towards me.") I've seen it used many times on this board, but still can't figure out an exact definition for it, though it seems to mean a dog that is naturally agressive towards strangers, as in barking, not necessarliy attacking.

I don't consider most of his methods as outdated as they are for the serious guard/protection training and is not a sport. The agation develops ;if done correctly enough of a suspicious nature that they are more trustworthy to perfrom when needed. It is hard to obtain the perfect level and one could easily create a problem dog if not careful. We all understand the liabailities.\

My opinion is that most people do not need nor can control this type of training./dog.

Civil agitation to most people is working a dog without benefit of protective equipment - a dog that will bite skin.

     Civil Agitation, I thought you were refering to "a day in the life of,..ME""

Quote:

I don't consider most of his methods as outdated as they are for the serious guard/protection training and is not a sport. The agation develops ;if done correctly enough of a suspicious nature that they are more trustworthy to perfrom when needed. It is hard to obtain the perfect level and one could easily create a problem dog if not careful. We all understand the liabailities.\

Sorry, didn't see where it said Dog there!!

GARD,

some of it is lost.  you have to admit training a dog in prey is usually easier, and you end up with more of a 'point' dog.  from the civil dogs i have seen they tend to be harder to controll in the ob. during protection.

i love the acting part.  done correctly you can get a very nice bark and hold,,ie dog looking at man not the sleeve.

i think most people use the term civil, like sue said, will bite skin.  you can also add "not equipment minded"   mix in some dog that brings the fight, not just barking for the bite, and top it off with some desire to push the helper around.  

john

Its not lost at all, its how I PP trained my RIkkor daughter, I welcome anyone to try and mess with me, my daughter, my home or vehicle when she's there. A "sleeve dog" she is not. It's harder to find, definitely. Training primarily in prey drives gets the job done faster and a title put on the dog sooner...thats why I feel its much more popular.

To be quite honest "civil" agitation creates a dog that requires and EXTREMELY HIGH level of  obedience control and they need a damn responsible owner.  Its not for everyone. My personal opinion is it creates amore consistent, confident working dog- but I shudder to think of every yahoo dabbling in schutzhund with poor handling skill sand weak obedience with a dog trainined in that fashion

PLus while dogs can discern some threat vs non-threat we all know certain "quirky" people can set some dogs off and one trained correctly with agitation is going to bite.  The selection of the dog to use in this type of training is also very important or you will end up with a pycho dog.

From its inception, Schutzhund was considered a test for breed worthiness. If a GSD didn't have a SchH title or breed survey, the dog could not be used in breeding. It was incumbent upon the breeder to make sure that his dogs possessed the right character and instincts to become a Schutzhund - thus adding the best qualities to the breeding pool. The native and natural instinct of the the dogs were emphasized and developed to bring out the aggessive instincts in the dogs. Then..the handler had to exercise his training skills by channeling these instincts to make a good working dog. The weaker dogs, who had very little fighting drive or courage, failed Schuzhund. These dogs were not introduced into the breeding pool.

Some people say, "The dogs of earlier years were tougher and more intense than today's Schutzhund. These dogs were tested and expected to perform. Those that couldn't hack it were eliminated from the breeding pool. The implication is: the change in training has inflused the breed today- to a greater or lesser degree. It begs the question - has training techniques and sport dog training of today overtaken the real tenents of the breed and breedworthiness?