Is civil agitation a lost art? - Page 5

P.S. Weather a dog is a man stopper or not is basically in his genetics and what he has inherited thereof.  A good hard confident dog will work in sport and IMO not be damaged by sport for real work. Either a dog has it or he doesn't, all the training in the world will not give him what it takes for man work. This is where I feel the charactoristic of aloofness is lost. My fear is that way too much focus is put on our dogs to be everybodys buddy ( Golden Retriever) and breeders often focus on this in breeding. Again JMO    thanks

Gustav, oh wonderful one, ( just joking) I want to send you an email if possible.

I believe that all dogs should see the civil side. Dogs that have this power are more confident. Very civil dogs should be trained and handled by only the very best handlers as control is then the issue. Yes, any idiot can bring pressure to let the power flow but the art is in turning into a quivering coward at the exact moment that benefits the dog the most. Many people try and many dogs get fried.{brains} If you every had a dog in front of you with serious intent but still in control of himself you would have the ultimate reason to love and respect the breed.

I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Civil work is mostly DEFENSE work, no need to move too much, not much coordination needed, which is why there are so many protection trainers out there who can't bring a dog along in prey, then channel that prey into aggression defence later to turn out a well-rounded dog who can have succes in the sport and still rise the the occasion at the appropriate time to defend its handler in a true threatening situation.

I'm not sure I should even START on my feelings about table training! I have seen some prey work done fairly on the table, with a decent dog, by a decent helper, but you will never see one of my dogs strapped to a pole on a small, raised platform! IMO that s*#t is merely a method of making a marginally suitable dog look stronger than its genetics would other wise present... TO THE UN-TRAINED EYE. Its a lazy-ass way for a fat, uncoordinated helper to try to make a crummy dog look good... definately NOT proper foundation work, and in the worst case scenario a plumb dangerous way, in the wrong hands (which means MOST hands in my book) to make many dogs so unsure as to bite out of fear for their very lives.  (read: forced retreive on a sleeve)  IMO: Its neither fair to the dog, not fair to the idiot who allows someone to do it to their dog.

I see a table, I run the other way, fast. Dog never gets out of the car.

SS

BTW: In today's litigious society, all I really want my protection dog to do is cue me and hold off the bad guy long enough for me to pull out my gun and shoot the SOB. Chances are I might get sued for killing someone, but at least my dog won't be put to sleep for defending me. I have a better chance in court than my dogs do these days.

Its like Dean said so many times: When someone threatens me, I call the cops.

SS

Shelley, the more you say the less you seem to know. The table, the deck, etc. are tools. They are used to bring out defense and build confidence. They can also be used for a number of obedience excercises and even to teach article indication. I'm sure someone who's been in the sport as long as you knew that, though.

"IMO that s*#t is merely a method of making a marginally suitable dog look stronger than its genetics would other wise present... TO THE UN-TRAINED EYE. Its a lazy-ass way for a fat, uncoordinated helper to try to make a crummy dog look good... definately NOT proper foundation work, and in the worst case scenario a plumb dangerous way, in the wrong hands (which means MOST hands in my book) to make many dogs so unsure as to bite out of fear for their very lives." I'm resonably sure you don't have a clue. You're not on the nose candy again are you?

Shelley I don't say much about a lot of your observations because many of them are just dumb or self-indulgent, but when you say stupid things that influence people to shy away from perfectly legitimate training tools I'll have to speak up.

Your're right. Civil agitation can be done by anyone. (By the way, Why would you use a sleeve for civil agitation?) Anybody can put on a sleeve, but I sure as hell wouldn't let them work my dog. Civil agitation is a lost art form. If you want the stronger guard, the more agressive courage test and a stronger hold and bark, then use it. If not, disregard it as a training tool. Yes, we have taken a lot of defense out of schutzhund. We are becoming more PC. That doesn't mean you can work a dog only in prey.

As far as the individual who can't understand why you let the dog carry the sleeve off the field, think about this. It is 1) a reward, 2) an ending to an excercise, 3) a way for the dog to channel into prey and then calmness 4) a way for you and your dog to leave the field as a team (don't let you dog run off with it by itself!) It is NOT bribery.

Folks if you're going to do civil agitation with a dog you need someone who knows what they're doing or at least a person coaching them who knows what they're doing.

Finally, Koehler and Most rock. What they wrote should still be read by serious trainers.

Spook- I think I know a good agitation decoy when I see one. One has to be damned good to be allowed to work any of my dogs. Better NO training than BAD training.

The only time my dogs see a full body suit prior to retirement is on a hanger in the concession area of a major event. Good for police dogs, not so good for my helper when we're trying to teach targeting, him not fond of leg bites.

Koehler didn't use a table for agitation. We weren't discussing training the retreive or indication. Different table entirely. I am talking about the high, square table with the pole in the middle with a leather collar bolted to it, commonly referred to as the "defence table," a brutal "tool" if ever I saw one.

Replace the pole with an  umbrella, spread a checkered table cloth over it, perhaps a vase of flowers, place a few high stools next to it, and OUILA, a nice platform to serve LUNCH on.

It doesn't bother me much if Spook doesn't appreciate my thoughts and opinions.

Perhaps I should adjust my first response. Instead of any idiot can do it, please read "Too many idiots are doing it."

Does that make us all happier?

After all, like Dear Abby, dear Shelley wants us ALL to be "Happy!"

The lost art is in evaluating a dog for work BEYOND schutzhund.  Schutzhund training is preparing a dog to test its breed worthiness.  On this dogs journey to be prepared for his titles he should be tested and evaluated (social aggression, civil aggression, defence thresholds).  High level schutzhund sport is for points.  Dogs with over the top drives can be difficult to control, ergo low points.

Serious civil agitation work must and should only be done by someone that can read dogs.  Too many dogs have been ruined by doing this work when mentally unable to handle the stress.  This work is not to measure the machoness of the agitator.  This work is to build the confidence in the dog to know that he can WIN when HE believes he is in for a serious fight.  Most people have not seen a dog in Fight drive.  Most handlers can not handle a dog in true fight drive.  Civil aggitation is to push the dog to the very edge of defence before fight drive and still maintain control.  Police agencys don't want high civil dogs.  They are a liability.  Most police K9 handlers are new to the K9 arena and can not handle a strong dog.  Most police agencys want to do PR work and demos with their dogs.  Now SWAT K9's can be more amp'd.

Police K9 want a calm, full grip to maintain control of the suspect.  Mounthy multiple punctures due to poor gripping is another liability issue.  If a dogs grip is weak, its a question of nerves.  You must also know the difference between mouthing and countering/regripping.

Training a dog for OB without a reward object is pretty impressive.  I would love to see video of a dog doing OB just for the love of its handler and praise.  While watching this video I would look for ear placement, tail set and overall movement of the dog.  Strong object drive in OB translates into ears up, raised tail carriage and a powerful trot.  Training in drive.  In the SPORT of schutzhund it was acceptable for the dog to merely perform the requisits as a matter of course, flat.  Now the judge looks for join in the work and an eagerness to please and perform.  Which can olny be obtained out of drive.

We must never forget tried and true training methods.  But we must also adapt, improvise and overcome.  The training table of old is not the same as today.  More understanding of canine behavior has been learned.  Just because we have been doing something for a long time does not mean we have been doing it right.

Just MY 2 cents.

Kyle

The table is also great for the out & targeting.  It's a marvelous tool when used correctly.  It's unfortunate that some misuse it, but that doesn't take anything away from those that use it properly.  I just wish people would withhold judgement on something they have only seen videos of.

Good post, Kyle.

SS