Is civil agitation a lost art? - Page 4

Yes for the most part it is lost or being lost.  The reasons are far and wide with far to many variables.  While Schutzhund has become a sport do not use it as an escape goat for the GSD issues.  The ultimate responsibility for the GSD is the breeder(s).   Just because a dog passed a performance test does not mean it should be bred.  There is a huge difference between trialing on your home field and trialing somewhere's else.  The talk of Malinois this or GSD that is foolish.  Both breeds have issues they may not be the same issues but they each bring with them their own sets of problems.   

Olskool,

You see some of the responses on this subject and you will understand why I post every three months. I don't have time for ignorance or UNconstructive dialogue.

Take care,

Gustav

Shelley,
I respect you and have always read your inputs as they are usually not from left field, but I have to coment on your post " Any idiot can do civil agitation" I am very perplexed by this statement. I think any one who has civil  would agree that civil agitation is more spontanious and requires reading the dog, constantly looking for weakness and strength. In the process my mind was going constantly to get the absalute most I could get out of  the dog. It is not a method or technique that is repeated as in Schutzhund. Not taking away from Schutzhund but civil work has different goals and these goals often have to be met during the bite, not before or after. As I mentioned in a previous post it was like ultimate fighting, constantly sizing up your opponent and then pushing them as hard as you could while being aware of when he would begin to stress, eyes looking around his enviorment to avoid harm and on and on. When I fought a dog the fight was on. The only glitch was that I always had to be sensitive to making to how hard to push and making sure he won. He was unstopable. He became afraid of nothing, man nor beast. Guns, chairs anything that could or would be used against him. As I said I am baffled by your coments, you are too sharp for that.

Spook, Jump in hear and add to this post, you have good understanding of GARDS topic.

Gustav, I see your point but this is about education, and you have the degree.  By the way is your email address available?
Whydoyouevenbother, you are right, the breeders ultimatly hold the fate of the breed in their hands and since breeders often breed for what people want, not what the need or even what is best for the dog (look at AM show lines).  As you mentioned though the problems are so many to list. Thanks

Some of the questions I have asked are being touched on. Do we really need or want this type of dog or training in this day and age?

For the record, I do prefer a dog that carries suspicion and agression. With that said, I think the points about the sport, how the sport has evolved, and it's affects on the dogs today are valid. What if we have come up with dogs that can do the sport work, be capable police dogs, as well as safe to be around people?

Our male is a prime example. He does not much outright agression (as of yet). He looks at people like a great big sleeve. Super stable and does not take things personally. He has high prey drive and really likes to fight. I ahve seen dogs like this make very capable police dogs. They don't have the defensive mindset so show little fear. This confidance allows them to go under houses, in underground drainage ducts, etc. They don't fight because they are angry, defensive, or scared. They just like to fight. Nothing personal but I am going to kick your ass. This stable confidence is what also allows them to be around the public and/or family withour the fear of an unjustified bite (for the lare part) If a "prey monkey" will bite for real and get the job done............

So if we are able to produce these types of dogs, do we still need and/or want the outright aggression? If we do, and there are more progressive tools and techniques to bring out aggression, is civil aggitaion a lost art or just an outdated method? If the art of civil agitation goes, Does the dog that carries outright aggression go with it?

Things that make you go Hmmmm...........

PS.

1) Table training done correctly is awesome. Very fun to do, not abusive,and can be used for a multitude of things, not just aggression.

2) Table work was developed in the US. I believe the Americans are doing quite well in international competition. ( Wallace P., Ivan B)

3) Any idiot can do civil agitation. To do it correctly is an art that an idiot most likely cannot do.

This is a great topic and I hope those of you in the real know will continue to educate.  I have never seen real, well done table work, I have seen a few video's posted here.    I would like to see more civil training but I don't believe most people have the know how or commitment to follow through so it's done correctly.  I think a half trained, or poorly trained,  civil dog would be, could be, dangerous and maybe that is why it's falling out of favor with many people.

Gustav, please keep going on this and other topics too..

True any idiot can do civil agitation as can any idiot breed dogs.

As with anything alittle knowledge can be a dangerous things.

There is a purpose for civil agitation in the training of certain type guard, police and military K9 training.  One doing this training should be well versed plus must have a good ability to "read" the dog. Not all dogs need this type training plus it involves alot more than just table training. As I stated earlier IMO most people have no need to use this type of training nor could they actually control the dog at all times as is required.

Also, IMO idiots should not be breeding dogs nor doing protection work as this is really serious business even in sport such as Schutzhund.

Gustav...Gosh   ...you seem to be the most intelligent person in the whole wide world!!!  You are so amazing correct in everthing you say!

I bow to you ole wise one...

NOW let me enlignten you.

The purpose of agitation is to take a dog that is either not civil, low confidence or equipment orientated and thru the use of agitation build his confidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!then you start adding the agitation to make him suspucious and predictable. (Readers Digest Version). I did not say it was quick and easy as few good things in life are.

Gard,
 " do we really need or want this type of dog or training in this day of age?"  My personal belief is that every law abiding citizen has the right to FEEL safe and be safe if they so choose. Is it necessary, I have mixed feelings. We live in a much different society today. Crime, terrible unthinkable crimes take place today that were not heard of say 40 years ago. Yet for the most part law suits have risen like crazy making it harder for folks to protect themselves today. Everything is over the top. So it goes back to individual choice like guns. Are there people that need firearms? Should they have them? I can't answer this for everyone. But I sure will fight to protect peoples rights to have either. 

The big point with the dog for me is that the dog must be under control or he is of no use. You can't rely on a protection dog that can't be trusted around people. I have a dog right now that I can take anywhere with people and he is fine. He will also meet a challenge I believe if given the opportunity. It is on me to decide what I want to do with it. Point being his temperment is good as it is, loves kids etc. and I am rethinking alot on which direction I want to go with him. I may focus on prey/play as I like the ballanced temperment he has now and am concerned that he would become too civil. 
" what if we came up with dogs that.................."  Isn't this the ultimate goal. This is what I want. However, my dog today would do lousy in Schutzhund Sport. He has what I like but is not the over the top drive needed for Schutzhund. There are obviously dogs out there that do it all but I think in time they will be less cause you can't stop the mentality that is going on today, ie Peta , Pet Smart, etc. etc. 
" do we still need and or want the outright aggression"  In my opinion, yes. Different strokes for different folks. I had a dog once that was nasty. He was a German working dog that was no nonsense. He was not a dog that I would take any where. He could not be trusted. When I bought him I put on a hidden sleeve to let him out of the back of my truck and he bit hard. Not bit like " stay away, I'm afraid of you" but a pretty committed bite.  Well, the man who had been robbed blind by theifs, losing his mill, couldn't afford the insurance, losing his families life time means of income loved this dog. It was a match made in heaven. His problems came to an end.
IMO dog serves mans purposes, what ever they may be. One has to look at a huge variety of needs before closing the door to any type of dog.
When my children were little and my wife was home alone at night while I was at work I wanted a civil dog. Period. 
" If we do are there more progressive tools and techniques to bring aggression?"   I don't think you can ever replace man facing a dog in as realistic a situation as you can to bring out aggression. JMO.
" if civil agitation goes does the dog go with it. ( paraphrased)  I THINK it goes the other way around depending on society. P.S. I don't mind my dog being a little pissed off, but I get your point, good point also. GARD, I hope I didn't just ramble, my  brain slows down after awhile.

olskoolgsds,  excellent.  

..." do we really need or want this type of dog or training in this day of age?"  My personal belief is that every law abiding citizen has the right to FEEL safe and be safe if they so choose. Is it necessary, I have mixed feelings. We live in a much different society today. Crime, terrible unthinkable crimes take place today that were not heard of say 40 years ago. Yet for the most part law suits have risen like crazy making it harder for folks to protect themselves today. Everything is over the top. So it goes back to individual choice like guns. Are there people that need firearms? Should they have them? I can't answer this for everyone. But I sure will fight to protect peoples rights to have either. .."