Is civil agitation a lost art? - Page 3

Excellent points, Gustav!

IMHO Even the changes in the Mut Probe has become more obedience than evaluating the dog's courage.

I think a good Schutzhund dog is a good example of the breed as far as the working and mental characertics of the dog go. As long as the trainer is honest and does not protect the dog to obtain the titles. I can easily take most titled Schutzhund titled dogs even if equipment orietated and make them into a man stopper.

"Table top training was developed in the States. It's not a technique, which I would put my dogs through nor would I advocate this kind of treatment for any dog.  I've seen some tapes of table top training, which are way over the edge and very brutal. Tethering a dog to a pole in the middle of the table, so the dog can't move IMO isn't achieving the purpose to bring out the fighting instinct in a dog.  Frankly, I wouldn't recommend it. IMO it's like akin to pit bull fighting and the despiration of fighting for one's life.

There are other sane approaches to build good protection in our dogs...dogs love a good fight, but they must win without being abused. IMO training isn't "a one dog and pony show", whereby every trainer is using the same techiques or methods. Today, we see most clubs using the same methods for sport dog training. It may be fun, but I question the value of using the same methods, especially when the method doesn't match the task. for the task. "

You have seen some tapes, meaning you probably haven't seen it done right.

I don't see the table as abuse or I would never subject my dog to such. I personally love watching the decoys work dogs on the table. It's probably one, if not my favorite thing to watch at training. There are probably as many different methods used in table work as on the ground. When I see the dog work on the ground, get put on the table and then work on the ground again and he is "better" than when he went up, it's being done right.

Table work can be a beautiful thing or like anything else done incorrectly, it can be ugly. Pinch collars can be ugly, whips, handlers, trainers, kennels, crates, anything used in extreme or in the wrong hands/method can be a terrible thing. Just like I would never say "kennels are horrible, all people lock their dogs up and it's cruel." I would not say "all table work is cruel" or rank it with the likes of Pit Fighting.

SouthTexan,

You don't know how valuable you are. Most schutzhund trained dogs CANNOT be turned into man stoppers. Ask any reputable police TRAINER or real protection dog trainer. If you can do what you posted, the German police academies would like you also, because they have gone on record as saying that the reason they have gone to the malinois is because of the difficulty in finding prospects out of the sport dogs. I don't know, but you would have to show me...JMO

Remember, 70 percent of the titled dogs in Europe are showlines, and most of them could not do manstopping. And not just showlines, there are a lot of workinglines that are prey monsters with over the top drive, but not the strength of aggression to be a manstopper.JMO again

Again..good thoughts on the subject. IMO we need to look more into the training and not have training and competition defining the purpose of the GSD.  IMHO...Maybe a different test to measure breedworthiness should be added to get the breed back on track.

IMO The concentration of prey training and making of "prey monkeys" in the majority of the blooslines has a adverse effect upon the breeding pool. Breeding for points in Schutzhund or solely on conformation placings isn't meeting the ultimate goal of producing a good working dog. The conformation ratings and breed survery tells us how the GSD meets the breed standard in form. In the function arena, Schutzhund has become more of a sport and less a test for breedworthiness. JMHO

Gustav, 
Where have you been? Good to see you posting.  After writing a lengthy editorial I decided to delete it. Call me yellow. I know these topics can bring out the fear biter in many. There are some good ones on here that can add much to this. Some good ones have not responded yet.
 I recently debated this issue ( your issue) with someone that took the opposite view. I think I brought out defense drive in him but we came to a good understanding. It is easy to come across too opiniated and set a conversation up for failure. Thank fully this person was seeking the dogs best interrest as was I so we ended up on the same page.
4-Pack, Interesting to hear from someone that has actually used this training method. I thought it would be worth exploring, looking at from the little I saw. I agree that we need to be careful to label something bad as in no good, not of any worth under any circumstances. Until I see the dogs response begining to end, see the dog under normal agitation, see the dogs response after the session and have a chance to look at the dogs temperment and the objectives of the training, in other words know the dog and see for myself I try to be careful in closing the door on something. If I saw something abusive, ( long term harm to the dog physically or emotionally) then it is not worth it.

Gustav, years ago when Martial Arts were new in this country I studied under old school teachers. As time went on and it became popular (Hollywood) it began to decline. Achieving belts became more important then good strong technique, fancy worthless stuff to impress became more important then what was really behind it. This is my concern for any thing that becomes popular, watered down outward appearance more then strength of charactor, performance for points rather then performance as mans best friend.

Olskool,

Your analogy on martial arts is right on point! I have seen too many dogs that take a full grip and "go along for the ride". As soon as the ride stops they out quickly with that worried look in their eyes. They are rewarded with maximum points because they had the almighty "GRIPS" and they outed quickly. Would I want to use this dog in real work that is stressful. And isn't most work stressful. And wasn't the GS created to be a working dog? Somebody, tell me where have we gone wrong?????? I'm not saying all GS are like this, but when you go to the biggest GS forums in the world and this is quite normal, then you begin to see how this noble breed has declined. Good aggression based in confidence and nerve is part of this breed. If we don't adequately test for this in the survey/testing process you will lose the trait. If today's decoys don't know how to adquately train/develop this over time the breed will lose it. I think we are almost there now!!! JMO

Any idiot can do civil agitation.

SS

Shelley, no doubt you excel at it.

Absolutely. Hand me the sleeve and a whip.

Like I said, any idiot can do it.