Please give me your opinion regarding Sheepherding skills - Page 1

Hello,
Rescued this dog 3 months ago,trying to find what she likes to do.Not Schutzhund.
Took her last week to be evaluated for Sheepherding,and it seems we found what she likes.Give me your opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjO-HOZsgfc

Thanks

Contrary to someone else who said they had seen your video
earlier and thought she 'gripped' too much to be steady around
sheep, I see a dog who is young, was possibly allowed to be in
with that first batch of sheep slightly longer than was wise,
because by her body language she was starting to get a little
more excited about them.  The sheepherder was right, the dog
has an innate idea about what she should do with the sheep
and where she should position herself in relation to the shepherd.
Bear in mind that while that would be excellent news in regard to
a Border Collie, I don't know enough about Herding Competitions
in America to be able to suggest how MUCH use it is for you & her.  
Given that sheep herding in the breed's native Germany is rather
different from sheepherding in my country, the UK.

But she will settle down with practise and maturity, so stick with it !
Glad to hear you both enjoyed it.

I have trained stock dogs and although she may come along, there are some concerns. Chasing does not equate to being a good herding dog. Watching the video (pretty good taping btw) I would have concerns that she wants to grab at the neck. That was a red flag for me. She wasnt corrected for this and in one part, the shepherder actually told her she was a good dog for doing something not so good. Obedience from a distance CONSISTANTLY is a must. She will need to down on command from half way across the arena every time (or close to it) you ask this and learn to slow her movement. You wont know until you and her work at this for a few weeks if she will have what it takes.

It's been a long time since I competed in this venue but if I remember right, grabbing ahold of the sheep would disqualify her. You need to also remember that although these sheep were very well trained, when you trial some are rather nasty and what will happen when one challanges her? Or tries to kick her? I know this is down the road a ways but worth considering if your going to put your sweat and tears into it. Its not a once in a while sport and the dog will need consistant work to be any good at it.

If you do decide to give this a whirl which you should, go to some stock dog trials and see other dogs. Even the beginning dogs work. It will help you understand what it will take to get your gal there.

Good luck
Barb

i left what i thought  of the herding   video on your other post ,another thing she is not doing is giving the sheep there space , she should never seperate the shep, her drive is very strong, if she does not  stop going after them  she wont be good at herding , but as i said before  if train right and can get good control of her, you may beable to do herding with her its the prey drive   you have to watch for.

Barb _ I agree that particular 'Good Dog' was mistimed, I noticed it too.
Didn't try to work it into my reply, as wanted to leave the stress on the fact
that this was a first attempt.   You and trixx may well be correct, only time
will tell, but on what I saw I'd be prepared to give it a while longer and not
be put off by behaviour that wasn't perfect from the get-go.  JMO,  FWIW.
I am certainly no expert, merely an interested observer of Trialing over
here, and a GSD fan.

Not true that a dog should never bite the sheep. A dog that will never grip (bite) is useless in many situations. Just because sheep look cuddly doesn't mean they can't hurt you or the dog. Anyone who has done herding knows how banged up you can be afterward from the sheep. They can knock you down and trample you and a really pissed off ram can kill a dog or a person. I've seen sheep stand a dog off and go after him, or totally refuse to move in the direction they're supposed to go. The dog has to be able to grip in these situations.

RescuedHeidi, your dog rounded up the sheep, brought them to the handler, and for the most part kept them there ALL BY INSTINCT the first time she was exposed to sheep. She has the right stuff. Lots of newbie herders will split off sheep so they can round them up again. This has to be corrected but that's what training is for. You need to control her gripping but the fact is she only did a little wool pulling and never actually damaged the sheep even though she was very excited. Yes, she'll also need to learn the drop at a distance and "that'll do" but no one expects that to happen the first time a dog works sheep.

Also there's no reason a GSD can't or shouldn't do "Border Collie style" herding.

Hope you continue doing this for your sake and your dog's sake. It's one of the most challenging and enjoyable things you could possibly do with her. You are smart to look for what your dog was meant to do and lucky to find it so quickly.

Recommend you check out some of the herding forums. But the most important thing you can do is get out there and train her with sheep as often as possible.

You might like a novel called Nop's Trials by Donald McCaig about a sheepherding Border Collie. It's a good read with some useful herding info in it. There's some hard to read stuff in it about what human brutes do to dogs though. But McCaig trials sheep herding dogs and really knows his herding stuff.

Im not sure if the "Not true that a dog should never bite the sheep" was referred to me but if it was, I didnt mention that a dog should never bite. Ive seen some pretty nasty range cattle that will take on a dog and the dog had better bite or will get kicked. BUT the neck is not where most will get their point across. The closest Ive come to that was from a ranch dog grab on to the nose . Usually though if the dog wants to get a raunchy cow moving, it comes from the backs of the heel. Thats why they must be small and agile and be able to dodge or flatten themselves to the ground to miss that flying foot and can get killed. Most don't usually see that kind of dog work esp at trials but Ive been around some not so friendly cattle dogs that were just awesome to watch.

BTW what's border collie style herding? Ive not personally seen a dog that can work like a border collie. They are just art in motion when they work.

Barb

From my understanding, in Germany it was desired that the dog grip the rear or the top of the neck to control unruly sheep.   Cow herding and sheep herding are quite a bit different, it would be too risky for a dog to grip a cow's neck, so that would be undesirable for that venue.  

I only watched half of the video, but I thought that the dog showed great promise since this was her first time.   Have you looked in HGH style herding?  That is built specifically for the GSD breed.   One of the best (probably the best) trainer is Ulf Kintzel in New York, I believe he has HGH classes and also holds trials.... this is his website  http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-home.htm  if he is too far from you, perhaps he can recommend a trainer closer to you.  

Thank you for the input.Yesterday was our second way and we worked on boundaries and obedience.As I was by myself I have no film of it.
The trainer explained that a young dog first has to learn how to controll its sheep.That it is indeed much easier to control circling wider than too close.They have to understand that there is no need to grip unless totally necessary.She learned to stay more out  and a controlled sit(short time) at a distance.
Next week we will get out of the roundpen as she's a bit further than some of her beginner dogs.The trainer also thinks that Heidi has to work and think more in a larger area,the gripping will disappear.