The Pet Quality Pup Issue Again? - Page 1

Ok, I'm going to do my best in wording this so people don't get all fired up!  This might make no sense, but I thought it was worth asking.  Let's face it, there are a huge number of people all around us that want GSD's but don't have the money, time, or the will of owning a working dog.  All they want is a good pet.  We all complain about BYB's and what they're doing to the breed.  So, for example, I'm working with my male Duke, who just turned one!  I'm working with him to pass the BH test, however after that, that will probable be it, unless we do herding down the road...The reasoning for this is that we are investing all of our time and money into our female pup.  I know there are other dogs out there that have their BH, but nothing else, either the owner ran short of money or something came up and they no longer have the time.  If both dogs have a BH and their hips and elbows are good, why couldn't you breed them with the intention of selling the litter as pet quality.  At least you are passing on dogs that are healthy and well balanced instead of like the hundreds and hundreds of GSD's that are being bred every year.  I'm sure the majority of you own dogs that are all SchH I,II,III...but maybe some of you have dogs that are only BH or know of some.  I think this would be a step in the right direction, it would be people that love the breed stepping up and helping the breed out, and some families that will love their dogs as much as we do.  Now please remeber, I'm not saying I'm going to do this! Just asking what people's thoughta are, so you can bash the idea, just not me

No, its not stepping up, its watering down.  It's a big enough problem the way it is.  if your dogs are worthy, then I think you should put in the time and effort and do what breeders for the past 100 years have done.  Taking short cuts and making excuses isn't going to help this breed.

EMTT

We have tried to dub the dog you describe as the "Golden Middle"  but some picked that apart too,... with comments like.... I don't want a middle of the road dog, I want a perfect dog... and so on.

I too preffer a dog that has the ability to do sch,/protection,  but ALSO has the capacity to be a loved family member,  who also posesses the Great looks the GSD has, and Superior Health,  get away from all the allergy BS, the EPI, the Displasia (as much as we can)  and go forward with a dog who can DO ALL !!    He may not be able to podeum at some big trial,  BUT he WILL stand steadfast and protect his family WHILE  laying at they're feet watching TV.

We have been and will continue to work toward titles,  Our dogs are not yet titled the ones we got close to,  did not OFA good enough for us to continue with,  Our club meets once sometimes twice a week and there are about 6 or 8 members,  We've had 1 trial in 3 years,  So YES it's slow going for us,  BUT we love our dogs, and so do others,  they come from sound breeding stock with Titles, and KKL and Show ratings,  So you know what,  We do our thing,  and we let others do they're thing....

I will get hammered for this only because I have the balls to say it,   Others near me do the same thing,  some very near me don't have any titles and they breed 5 to 7 litters a year,   Who cares ??   They're dogs are of good temperament, good health, and are OFA'd.  

To each his own                    and anyone with balls enough to argue that has no brains.....  For in our country we are allowed.

Breeding FOR working dogs and ending up with a couple/few pups that might be better suited for a pet home is one thing.

Breeding FOR pet homes is an entirely different thing. It is a disgrace to the breed.

Get a breed suitable FOR pet life instead of trying to "water down" (as someone else properly put) a working/herding breed.

I know plenty of dogs that were bred from untitled parent's, doesn't mean I agree with it, but since this wasn't about a golden middle, and all the other catch phrases that get thrown around, but rather about breeding healthy pets cause not everyone wants a working dog, then why are  would someone be looking for a gsd??? I mean they ARE a working dog.  HMMMM german shepherd breeding is working dog breeding or it is NOT german shepherd breeding.  Any idea who said that?  how about showing the man a little respect.  if you don't want a working dog, but just a pet, get a cat, or a shi tzu

Sorry for lack of clarity...that last sentence was targeted toward breeders, not those seeking pet quality pups.

Each time a titled and breed worthy GSD is bred, the breeder hopes, prays and basically has planned that the litter will be better than the dam and sire. Realistically, we know that there is always going to be a couple of lesser pups we deem as "pet quality".  The responsibility of a good breeder is to breed with improving the line with each breeding. It is my belief that the guidelines set forth in regard to proving a dog before breeding are there for a reason. There are entirely too many people who breed dogs without the knowledge of what their dog or dogs truly are. Using the guidelines(if used properly) we have help us, as breeders, to determine what we need to add or take away from the breeding. A BH is a great stepping stone to the rest of the test. However, it isn't all there is. In comparison, I wouldn't want a med student operating on me, I want a certified surgeon with a few surgeries under his belt.

If a breeder wants to improve the line, make a name as a good breeder, and wants puppy buyers of a good caliber, completing all the tests, and earning the titles, is a great way to prove your devotion to the breed. I personally, would not purchase a pup from a breeder who did not appropriately test their dogs using the criteria I follow(title, breed survey, etc). A breeder really needs to know what it is that they have before they determine what to breed it to.

I am not saying that a dog with just a BH isn't quality, I am just saying that the proof, for me, is not there.

Well said, Dees Wolf.  maligator & zdog.  Our dogs should be proven before bred.  The SV system may not be perfect, but it's far and away better than what we have going on here in the states.   Breeding for "pet quality" is not how you improve or even maintain the GSD standard.

Ok, I'll say this at the expense you all are affording EMTT - Schutzhund is a sport.  "Working Dogs" work.  Police k9's are not buying Sch titled dogs anymore in my area.  Dogs are still needed for police work, detection, body recovery, SAR, protection and I am sure a dozen other good reasons.  If someone wants to breed dogs to provide for local LEO or SAR organizations and they have good temperments, drives, health, hips, etc., and have these organizations knocking on their doors for more pups, what then?  Turn them away?  Tell them to start buying ShihTzu's?  Sometimes you all amaze me!!  EMTT asked a legit question, honestly putting themselves out there and you all proved once again how closed your minds are.  Schutzhund is not the end all of dog breeding.  It is a great sport, fun but costly - K9 LEO in my county will not buy Schutzhund trained dogs anymore because they have to do too much "untraining" to make them suitable for the job.  Where then will they find them?  Raise them theirselves?  Taxpayers now paying for dog breeding programs????  I believe the proof is in the pudding - either you have 2 dogs that produce good pups or not, I don't care how many titles they have, I have heard a dozen stories on here of pups from great lines that were crap.......................................................and a good name has to do with ethics not how much money or time you have.

Echo...ditto - this is a free country and people can set their criteria however they want but it doesn't make them right or wrong, it's just their personal choice.  Their opinion is theirs, they are welcome to it and not everyone will agree nor should they.  Oh, the joys of democracy!

Sorry if I offend anyone, don't mean to, just get tired of seeing such extremes here - you'd think I was visiting a board on politics or religion - geezzz!

Deeswolf, For the most part your post is excellent and right on the money. I have a untitled bitch and she is breed every season and is breed worthy with many Sch3 and Police dogs to her credit so titles are not everything entirely espcially when I see paper titled dogs who have no business having a litter by any means. Every breeder does things a little different and the only reason this female was never titled was my fault but to not breed her would have been a huge mistake as I even think at this years WUSV one of her pups will represent the US by the way things are looking. So far she has been the best producing dog at this kennel and I wish I had ten more like her but you cant find this kind of dog they usually never leave Europe.

Now a kennel with dogs from entirely untitled stock is another story entirely and it is hard to judge working ability when none has been tested i understand that but usually the price reflects that . If the kennel has xrays done and produces healthy pets with good temperament and finds good homes what is the harm as Echo said. Not every one can afford a high priced dog from titled parents and as long as the pet quality breeder is taking good care of their dogs and breeding good dogs from  titled or not leave them along not everyone wants the same thing . People are free to choose the price they want to pay and other kennels should not bash them just do the best  they can and develop the lines they want to if it is all titled thats great but this is still a choice.  Use judgement is the key and be honest with faults of  your dogs I have purchased Schutzhund titled dogs from Europe and sold them for pets at a big loss because they were not breed worthy in my judgement so judgement calls need to be made in any breeding program for sure and not hung completely upon titles.

Too much arguments on here telling everyone what she or he should do try and educate people if you can to breeding standards but to shove them down their throats is another thing. Our country has no standards, AKC is a joke we all know this so who can tell anyone else what to do is beyond me.

Marlene