KNPV trouble - Page 5

So you are saying use classical conditioning. Can you give some examples?

Hope we continue to get dogs like Arno Maatman, Arno Kleine Scaars, and Wibo.

Hired Dog I don't believe any trainer is too old and set in their traditional ways to learn new methods. They may have some idea that they are too old to WANT to learn; but that is a whole new kettle of fish.
We are currently in 'debate' in the UK with a gundog 'trainer' who gets results by hauling spaniels off the ground and into a Sit literally by their ears (and then smacking their backs once on the ground again, for good measure); stops them rushing through doors etc by smacking them in the face with the bars of their kennel gates; if that method fails and they still shoot forward, turning a jet wash full onto them. He swears his methods work. Maybe they do; but do they work well, and without other effects detrimental to the dogs' temperament and relationships with their owners ? Suggest he could do much better.
I hold no brief for PETA but if that mob and the SPCAs & Humane Societies etc can get results WHERE OTHERS IN THE DOG WORLD HAVE MISERABLY FAILED so far, then so be it.

There are 'traditional methods' ... and then there is ABUSE.

Hund, I have zero tolerance for abuse, I do not mind hard corrections if and when they are warranted and it means that without one, my dog may suffer or die.
Yes, indeed, some trainers that have been doing this for 50 years, on a serious level, are not interested in changing their ways because those ways produced results consistently.
And this is not just with training, its with most things that require change after a lifetime of doing them a certain way.

Like most people who regularly post here, including you HiredDog, I agree that there are times when you need to use an 'aversive' method (to use the 'new' Training parlance), to actually prevent damage to the dog, or to those around him/her. But only if you have already tried the kinder, reward-base methods, surely ? This, in the lingo of 'modern' trainers is usually referred to as the 'balanced' method - although I know there are those 'Force-Free trainers' out there who use 'balanced' as a way to insult those whom they do not agree with ! (I'd like to see some of them take on and get results with dogs who are too 'strong' NOT to have to, eventually, use the "Fourth Quadrant" with, but they won't touch 'em with the proverbial pole).

All well & good; but if we know somebody (not necessarily an 'older' somebody, though maybe they are being taught by one !) who starts out using very unkind methods from the get-go, in our Clubs or wherever, do we always manage to challenge them ? Shouldn't we ?

[Yes - it is the same, Hired, 'as with most things'; there is, especially @ the moment, a parallel with racism. If nobody challenges unfair behaviour when they see it around them, do they not help to allow it to perpetuate unchecked ?]

Hund, I, like most others at the time, started out with Koehler. His methods worked and they worked well. As time went on, the dogs that were being bred could no longer be trained using those methods and then the Malinois came to the States. I owned the first one to be a police dog in the USA and we had to change our training methods since we did not want to "wear" the little red dogs 3 times a week.
I have been a BALANCED trainer since for ever. I was never that big on what borders dog abuse, yet, never had a problem dishing out a well deserved correction.
I do not pay much attention to what everyone else is doing and what they use or call themselves and I dont belong to any clubs, but, I know this and it applies to everyone.
Once your mind is made up, its almost impossible to change it, even when you know you are wrong, that is the human spirit for you. If I see you doing something that is not correct, I will offer you a better way of doing it, if I know of one, always knowing that I may not ever change your mind.

I guess that's all we can do ...IF we do it. Too often I see people witter behind the back of someone 'training' with abusive methods, but not directly engaging with them about it. I think this is what I'm saying when I write of the failure of clubs & others to change the course of what gets carried on because its never opposed. Of course someone 'stuck' in certain ways of thinking will not revise that, if never confronted with concerns about it, and offered alternatives.

BTW I can't think offhand of anything Koehler wrote (though admittedly its a while since I picked up anything of his) that I would consider 'abusive', (although probably PETA might !) Most of the old-school trainers may have said 'be firm' with the dogs, but that was in sync with other advice about sensitivity to the dog, praise, rewards - and never actually indicated bashing 'em ! Nor in the early days was there much use of, or reference to, e collars ! I have recently seen on Facebook a pic someone put up, of a dog's neck on which a pinch had been used, to excess. Not an edifying sight. Maybe not something easily noticed while the dog had hair on its neck - once shaved, however, a very different picture emerged.

For hole digging, he advised filling the hole with water and holding the dog’s head in the water until the dog needed to breathe. I think he had a sadistic streak. He was all about punishing a dog before there was any attempt to teach the dog the behavior.

That Koehler hole correction method disregards the basic premise that dogs learn from association - action and reaction. You cannot correct a dog for something they did hours, even minutes before-hand, the correction must be made at the time of the offense.

Everyone can learn to do things differently, including training dogs.    If you do not do your job correctly and face losing it, you will most likely figure that it's in your best interest to change and learn to do it correctly.   The KNPV trainers who are using excessive force are facing the same threat - losing their ability to train dogs without government intervention.   So they either train in hiding, or change their methodology which is not that difficult to do if one is willing to learn and change.   If not willing to learn/change, then their choice may be taken from them.   Adapt or become extinct.

Koots, everyone can, yes, but, one must want to, one must be open to new and when people reach a certain age, especially if they had a of success with a method, they become resistant to change for reasons that are not just "because", but, also because of how the brain is wired and continues to wire as we get older.
Look, I am not offering excuses for anyone, but, again, I keep in mind that people will defend to the death their own opinion/idea, even when they know they are wrong.