Watered Down sport?? - Page 5

taking pressure definately is a quality, like hardness and dominance, all qualities modern training can do without

Does not follow that traits aren't desired or exist in modern top dogs, does not follow at all.

Still a GSP dominates a Cabbage with intelligence, skill, athletic ability and speed. Cabbage is a punching bag -> ananolgy etc.

 

To say that top modern sport dogs can't take pressure is as laughable as it wrong and insulting.

 

More pressure in obed now than the whole schutshund routine of old.

your analogy does not applie to dogs, and i dont say there are no hard or dominant dogs in todays sport, but that modern training can succeed without them,

and in top training with Ecollar today the pressure on dogs is way lower than with physical corrections and adjustments of old days, something the animal right groups etc should recognize, but that is other discussion

 

 

Good post, Duke.....things have evolved in training and dogs, Sch/IPO has evolved, the knowledge/handling has involved, respect and manners have evolved. Things are different now.

I knew that the idea that because dogs back in the day took unnecessary amounts of pressure to get the same…no wait…worse picture…would come up. That’s really the only straw most “Schutzhund is watered down” people have left. The idea that top level dogs don’t see pressure is also laughable. But it’s no surprise coming from people that don’t really get to go see top level training very often (or ever). It’s unfortunate so many men find happiness and life’s meaning in beating dogs and seeing how much abuse their animals can take. Claiming the sport itself is watered down because the methods have changed makes absolutely zero sense. Most of today’s dogs would look just like the dogs of 20 years ago on the field if they were trained/treated the same way. The way those dogs took the pressure was to finally shut down and appease…plenty can do that today, including the weakest of dogs going out to club trials.

Many dogs lack the drive to do things for food or toys, and so compulsion is the only way to train them to do the majority of exercises. They learn that doing it right, releases the pressure/pain. They also all look like the dogs you see in BSP and WUSV videos of the 80s and 90s. The biggest difference is that many of the dogs back then still had the drive to bite and so when a helper was on the field, they would get past the pressure and still look half way decent…most times way out of control…but still decent. The interesting part would be if those dogs had to be trained under today’s higher level expectations of control. I watched a few videos of BSP performances from the late 80s and you can see that the idea of “control” was way different than it is today. The dogs were allowed to stay out of control, either due to the fact that they didn’t know how to get them under control, or that they couldn’t handle the pressure that would be necessary to get those dogs under control and therefore show way weaker than they do in their actual performance. Today…we don’t expect the same level of control from weaker dogs that if they were made to control themselves wouldn’t be capable of reacting properly and coming back up in drive to complete the main portion of the exercise in protection. Many many many trainers/handlers, who won’t admit it themselves, have to allow their dogs to stay out of control because they can’t handle the pressure that it would take to teach them control and also bite/fight once it’s called for. Usually…the excuse for this is “my dog is just too strong” but those that know…we know it’s that there is either weakness in the dog, or weakness in the training ability.

WOW B-W
So you are saying the today IPO dogs can take all the pressure in the world even the weakest dog
the same as the oldschool dogs .....???

There was also a big different in decoy work some oldschooldogs would only bite for real agression
they hated the decoy for real , this is a rare find on the trainings field. Today its easy prey this one of
the reasons why rottweiler, bouviers don,t make it on te top of the sport podiums, they are also have
less drives in in prey but work better in real defense or real agression, this is also a rare find decoys who can work with this dogs....


Today high drives flashy is KING,... Pressure what pressure in exercises  can you show me this???

Even in the KNPV  PH -1-2 is   less pressure test   also high driven dogs are  king .

What other said here  before the modern newer  flashy training methods have a lot influence on today breeding and selecting dogs
 

It's good to hear from someone who has visited 99% of training clubs in the world. Appreciate the input.

Please post some videos of "old school" trial work and let me know where you see a ton of pressure being put on by decoys. They could barely drive dogs back then due to lack of any resemblance of technique. Most drove around in a tiny circle with a stick waggling above their head like they're playing with a lasso. Pressure? Move on.

Pressure is any time you're correcting a dog. A correction is pressure. That's where you see a lot of dogs shut down. Especially in tracking or even obedience when a reward isn't present and drive is lower. Majority of people have horrid timing and can't balance heavy corrections with proper/equal amounts of praise in order to keep their dogs in higher drive or presenting a better picture. The best dogs...can take pressure (a heavy correction), and without needing to see their reward still revert to high drive/happy work because that's their natural state. For example...an extremely high drive dog on a retrieve will generally lean forward and raise it's butt once the dumbbell is thrown and they have to wait for their command. Dog might not break, but dog raises it's back end. That's 1/2 to a full point loss. A good dog...can be corrected for that, and will still run out full speed for the dumbbell once the command is given. Weaker dogs...cannot handle that pressure and go into conflict and then don't want to leave the handler, or move very slow because they've just been corrected and their drive for the dumbbell isn't high enough to do it with full speed. This is exactly what you see in the old dogs...heavy correction and no praise. The dog's drive is killed and it muddles through the obedience phase. Handlers and judges alike didn't know any better so those performances were still considered "great" but then people started training smarter and the judges had no choice but to reward attitude, speed, focus, precision, etc. Go to club trials and don't just sit on working dog watching national and world level performances, you'll see the kind of obedience I'm talking about. Those dogs...have to be taught with compulsion and pressure to complete many of the IPO exercises.

You're spot on as to why the more defensive breeds can't make podium. Can't believe no one has ever thought of that. Has nothing to do with lacking the drive to do obedience and compete with the higher drive dogs out there, it's all about bite work and protection. Take a look at which phase the largest score discrepancies happen in...podium is rarely decided on the protection score, but yes, it's the lack of real defense and aggression that hurts dogs ;).

 

What agression and real defense are you talking about on the today  sport fields and what pressure.....
can you show me this? This was my question.

And yes most of today handlers or decoys  have no any idea how to bring a  real rottweiler or bouvier to the  top,  because this need other skills.....and patient



 

 

I never wrote about it on the trial fields, but nice try. Maybe work on reading comprehension and then we can have a discussion.

ok