Line fishing with one of my dogs - Page 5

Well I'm sure that you've seen all the thousands of dogs used for police work so you're definitely the final authority on that. I don't doubt that you've seen dogs that scream like that and are police K9s, most K9 departments and handlers have no idea what they're looking at and just take whatever they're handed, if that dog screams, it screams, and the master trainer that sold them the dog has told them it's fine so why would it be an issue? Anyone with half a brain though, that isn't just into it to let their dog get a bite and hurt another human for no reason while they stand there clapping their hands all excited about it, will tell you that they'd rather have the suspect give up without needing to send their dog, that is much more likely to happen when your dog sounds like a dog is supposed to sound like. Maybe you've been hanging out with too many malinois and have forgotten what a "bark" sounds like. In that case...go ask a 5 year old child the noise a dog is supposed to make and hopefully they'll remind you what noise a dog makes.

Yogi...why would you give an out in a situation that's still not under control or maniac? Do you guys use any common sense when describing or picturing "real world" situations? Why would you out your dog before having a suspect completely subdued, either with multiple people or handcuffs? I think most of you really over exaggerate the amount of fight you'll get from a human once they're bit without a bite suit or a sleeve on...or maybe you think cops are completely inept and wouldn't be able to use common sense in when to out the dog and when to not?

In my experience (and nice shot at sport work by the way) a dog that is taught an out and control is much more stable after a bite and much less likely to redirect or re grip on a helper or decoy. A dog that is being pulled off by a collar or a harness...if it's worth anything...is always taking snaps and trying to get back on the bite. A dog that can be outed, calmed, and moved away from a helper/decoy, is definitely a much smaller risk to the people around it than one that is being held back and snapping at anything that it can get a hold off due to the large amount of frustration that is built in that situation.

With my "sport dog" I have no chance of pulling him away by the collar from a helper that is less than a foot away. He will lunge and get a grip no matter how fast I try to grab his collar. Sure, after cutting off his air for enough time, he'll let go, but I'll have to keep that pressure on him while pulling him away and him pulling with everything he has towards the helper. It's not fun or easy...the only thing that keeps him from redirecting to me or to anyone near by is the fact that he's super clear even in situations of such high frustration.

 

Not call myself an expert but Police here almost don,t use GSD for LE streetwork . and I have never heard about
if they select dogs for deep dark barking sound. ...they need dogs who can  do the job proper............
 

 

Bw it was not a shot at sport I tried to illustrate between the different surroundings look at any video where police swarm around the suspect would u want to b around a dog that is in the highest drive that is told to out just because the handcuffs are on . To teach an out imo is good for some situation and not for others

Ok, lets take a small piece of what I said and throw it completely out of context. No one said police "select dogs with a deep bark" but it's definitely part of the "whole package." Many times, that whole package isn't available...police don't have the money to buy the best of the best, and are constantly depending on their contracted brokers and trainers to tell them what's good, so if the broker wants to sell them something, they'll figure out a way to spin it as a positive...you know "the dog can do the job proper" instead of...the dog can do the job but it does have flaws (no one is paying $20,000 for a dog with flaws).

Like I said before...most dogs I've trained can run the scenario presented in the OP. Not all of those dogs are what I'd consider strong by any means or would ever consider solid working dogs that could be an actual police dogs, but they can all do that scenario when held back on a leash, worked up, and sent for a bite. Would I depend on them out of context/without showing them the scenario before? No. But they'd run that scenario with the same outcome and as you've stated "do the job proper." Many of those dogs...wouldn't scream like that prior to that either, they'd go into a nice bark because they've been taught to bark, even those dogs that genetically want to revert to that type of scream (GSDs and malinois).

Thank you yogi...you've illustrated my point. Yes, like I've said, my dog would be in much more control if told to out and if he knows that the rule is that he can't regrip at that point. I would then be able to remove him from that situation without the worry that he's going to bite the suspect, other officers, or myself. If I were to grab his collar...he'd lunge and grab whatever he could grab. So in a group of police officers and one suspect...there's a high chance that's going to be a police officer. In a perfect world, and with a great dog...the dog can have that control, and still be ready to reattack the suspect if needed. The issue is that of the thousands of police dogs out there...they're no where near that strong or good. An out to many is the end of the fight and not just a pause in the action...the way people teach outs can also have an affect on the dog and can get it to not be in full fight drive due to worrying about the out. So when it's not necessary...the risk is too great to brokers and trainers to teach one to a dog that might be subpar and not strong enough. These kinds of issues are also hard to see prior to trying to teach an out...so most trainers don't risk it.

When pulling a dog physically...you're depending greatly on the physical ability of that handler to control the situation and the dog. A truly strong dog, you know...those monsters that the majority of you all have...shouldn't be able to be controlled physically by anyone. 4 points on the ground instead of 2, much lower center of gravity, and in general much stronger and faster than the average human. A dog that WANTS to comply, or is TAUGHT to comply, is much more likely to be in control in that kind of situation than one that is being physically dragged away. It's really surprising that people who train any kind of protection don't realize that and are actively denying those facts...

I know this experience is from a sport field...but the majority of the handlers I work with are women. No way could they manhandle their dogs (and they're not all monsters) and no way would they be able to manhandle the monster dogs all of you have. Maybe this is a surprise to some of you...but there are plenty of female handlers in police departments all over the world, and there are also plenty of male handlers that aren't NFL football players when it comes to their physical abilities either. Expecting these average people to be able to physically control a truly good dog...that's mind blowing to me.

For those saying why the dog doesn't out , hes got Great obedience  , what that is a tactical release of a dog in a situation where lots of officers are involved and u don't want any confusion and u control the dogs neck, this is a police k9 in training btw, I'll post a video of the out

have to agree with bavarion wagon here, control and clean out versus the dogs that you have to choke off and will redirect most of the time, but also if a dog works well I wouldnot mind how he barks

the out will be easyer if you have well balanced dogs with good balance prey/civil agression

https://youtu.be/QqwjXoujM0M

Shaw that's what im trying to say thanks. Bw your mind is wrapped on sport and no matter what u think pressure situation call for a different handling when I take a dog he is secure and without a doubt under my control .

balance and control are same for both sport and LE LOL

I want all of my dogs to "out" on command...( and I am pretty sure Shawni´s dog is able to do so, too ).

I know that an "out" is not useful in some "real life scenarios", but most of the times it makes sense.

The German police dogs have to go through training and final testing ( including the out ), and they have to renew the test on a regular basis.

But that´s just theorie, not real life - in "real life" a lot of police dogs don´t "out" properly, they learn to do so for the tests, but the rest of the year they simply "bite". A dog is able to understand the difference between "training scenario" and "Wild West", and most police dog handlers don´t mind. They just want to get hold of the bad guy - understandable.

What people tend to forget - a lot of dogs are able to "bite", but only the good ones ( and properly trained ones ) will stay focussed and stable AFTER the "out", the weaker ones will leave the helper / bad guy, and that´s something no police dog handler wants to see, pretty dangerous for police officer and dog.
Given that not all ( I don´t want to say "not many" ) police dogs do have stellar nerves, I understand the tendency to let them bite without "out" in a "real world scenario".

The prey bark is a result of training and genetics, today most dogs are trained in prey aggression, and within police departments they have to learn pretty fast, no time for "fine tuning" ( last time I actually cared the time frame was 3 months ).