I think treat training is cruel. - Page 18

Prager-

The only points I wanted to make so long ago, was that calling food, when used for training, as in marker training, cruel....is extreme to the ying yang.

Not to mention confusing to new dog people that might be reading along, as it is simply not true across board as a general statement. That is my opinion and a billion other dog trainers and owners, including some of the most admired and talented trainers of our time.

And to correct the notion that marker training is the same thing as “only positive training”. Another incorrect assumption, and gross overexaggeration, that I did not want to let stand as was.

ADD:

Prager says:
I will make it even more concise.
ALL I am saying is that while you can teach the dog obedience commands and even detection and circus tricks and so on, you absolutely can not teach effective universal all-encompassing "emergency brake" NO! with marker training.

 

Where did I ever say it was? I said at one point one may need to correct less because you are giving the dog the good stuff during the teaching phase....and beyond.

I have said all along...”Marker training is a good tool to learn new behaviors”. And there you go...getting me to repeat myself ad nauseum again.

You can, however, condition or pair a NO marker with an unpleasant stimulus to create an operant learning moment. So that eventually the NO will suffice...for very tough dogs.

Please follow me carefully. 

So JJ  you are  saying and I am quoting you directly:

"Marker training does not rely on only positive. There, I’ve said it a million times now.  .........
I can add a yank on the leash, yank a prong, or yank on a choke collar.
I can add the above and increase them in duration or strength.
I can add my harsh voice."

You have also said:" You can, however, condition or pair a NO marker with an unpleasant stimulus to create an operant learning moment. So that eventually the NO will suffice...for very tough dogs." With which, BTW, I agree wholeheartedly. 

 So wait !!!! You may have said it "millions of times now",  but you have also said that marker training is "without pressure and stress and it is joyous training".

 Little contradiction of terms dont you think? That is what I am arguing with you for I do not know how many pages. 

 My next point is ;

So finally you admitted and put it in writing and that is what I have wanted all alone. Your marker training does not need to be necessarily so   "joyous and without stress and pressure." as you were insisting on only a few pages ago while insinuating how dimwitted and uneducated I am.  OK fine. Never mind that.  Now you are saying that marker training may include Yank and crank, harsh voice, e collar, pinch and choker.  I knew that all along and I was merely trying you to admit it. Now you finally have. 

 After I have said that there is nothing new in dog training for a long, long time, 

you have said here that marker training is a modern new method never used method scientifically formulated and other happy horse sh1t. So can you please explain to me how yank and crank on pinch and choker collar and harsh voice as you describe it as part of marker training are new and modern? William Koehler is smiling from his afterlife place. 

You said that my question is a trap. Yes. Well, I think, the trap is closed. 

 

 

  

Marker training is affective for teaching new BEHAVIORS.

"NO" is not a behavior....it is a deterrent to cause the animal to cease a behavior.

Anyone who needs to ask HOW to teach NO to a three year old dog can't claim to be a trainer. Anyone who wants to dis marker training using the NO command as an example, can't claim to be serious about a discussion of training.

Prager says :
....So wait !!!! You may have said it "millions of times now",  but you have also said that marker training is "without pressure and stress and it is joyous training".

Jiminy Christmas Prager -

You are one tough Son of a Banana.

Do I have to repeat the obvious? Again?

Marker training is best for TEACHING a new behavior. That teaching of a NEW thing  without stress or pressure...and yes, the dog is joyous and happy, believe it or not. He is not confused because of the very clear communication...and getting his agenda (whatever it is) satisfied after the fact of working WITH ME as a team. No wait...even better, he is eager to work with me!

When proofing...actually more accurately, in the later stages of proofing and thereafter, one can add corrections on a sliding scale, if needed, DEPENDING ON THE DOG, for that particular behavior.

Both marker training AND traditional behavior = consequence training can be done with the same dog. 
 

Nothing new under the sun:

Normally I agree with that. However, the system of Marker training is a more modern method because the scientific theory of operant conditioning it is around a 100 yrs old. And Marker training is around 50-60 years old, starting, as some have mentioned, with dolphins and I believe the US army or navy. For dogs, maybe hitting the mainstream max. 20-25 years ago. The SYSTEM (being able to reproduce reliably the same result each time) which includes the TIMING of marker and reinforcement, operant conditioning, were developed last century.

Now, I am writing this right after you posted...I don’t google stuff before posting...so someone may know more exactly about the timeline.

So, bada-boom.... your trap malfunctioned. I knew of your planned trap way back, my friend.🥂

 

PS: I never said you are dimwitted and uneducated. I never would do that. It is obvious you are not. But, you were also not following my points for a million of those pages.

 

 

 

Me being extra cruel to my young male Champ (Orlo Son). This is him shaping how to open a drawer for the first time. This is what shaping and marker training looks like in practice. If this is cruel... (bite me!) than you've never seen what true cruelty looks like and you are part of the problem. Quit calling everything cruel just because you dont understand or agree with it.

 

Seriously, how can you look at this and call it cruelty? If the dog did not want to participate he would walk away....

 

Barenfangs, thank you for sharing the video of Champ. Smart and handsome too!

Does anyone know if it's possible to go back and edit a post from a few days earlier? I provided some wrong information and would like to correct it.

Thanks

Emoryg, do a cut and paste the and then make the correction after the pasted post.

Perfect! Thanks Joanro!

I figured it would be good to see a true and good example of what marker/clicker training looks like. You could reace the clicker with your voice but I only do that once the behavior has been established.

Petting is just not enough when you are training something like a Service Dog. It just is not. And when a life is on the line and you truly have a need than you have to train each task reliably and generalize it. I use all four quadrants when training a dog and once the behavior is generalized and has become so ingrained that its basically "muscle memory" thats when the behavior itself becomes rewarding and the dog can work for a happy "Yes, good boy!" And a happy dance with butt scratches.

But do not call something cruel that isn't. Treat training is not cruel.  Especially in todays world where Sport Dogs, SDs , Guide Dogs and Working Dogs are high on the list of AR agenda.

There are people out there that want to ban Service Dogs alltogether and calling treat training cruel plays right into those pockets.

Verbiage matters! We have got to stop to be our own worst enemy! 😡

BaerenfangsErbe-
Fantastic example of marker training. Look how fast your dog understood the clicker. And yes, he is eager, joyous and happy in training this.

It is really awesome!
Thanks for posting the video. A vid is worth a thousand words. (Or one click is worth a thousand words 😏...har, couldn’t resist...)