I think treat training is cruel. - Page 17

I keep thinking...
....what could be the missing link in this conversation, and why some are continually only equating marker training with positive only training? 

And the only thing I can come up with now is that marker training is being mixed up ...and excluded from the basic premise of training, which is:

Dogs Behavior brings about a Consequence for the dog.

Just because you use operant conditioning when TEACHING with marker training (marking a behavior in time) and positive reinforcement, it does not exclude the basic premise of “training with consequences”. One does not exclude the other in the lifetime of the dog. They co-mingle for the most effective way to get the dog to comply.

Hang on Valk,

I have to go run my multimillion dollar company for a few hours...but I’ll be back.😉




 

Jesse: Quite right. There are 4 quadrants.

JJ: And, for cricky sake, STOP calling it all POSTIVE TRAINING !!!!!!!

Prager Hans : Please stop telling me what I understand and what  I do not understand. You say that i do not understand then you repeat what everybody knows. Maybe you do not understand what I am staying. I do not know. it is not that hard if you do more then skim over my posts. I am going strictly on what you are saying. It is you who calls it that. After all you called it no stress no pressure joyous training. So what is it? Now I understand that you have hard time to say that you are willing to correct the dog. But in reality you do.
I have asked several times about what you do when dog misbehaves and all i got is the happy Sh1t training.
I have divided training steps on
1/ learning
2/ conditioning
3/practicing
4/ working
I have said that after dog learns the commands - by using a marker training - what are you going to do when the dog who is in higher stages of training misbehaves. Because you acted as that you do not understand and continued talking about more marker training, I used an example of an aggressive dog and you again talked about more marker training and then you latched on the example while it should be clear from what I wrote that I mean ANY MISBEHAVING OF ANY SOTRS the aggressive dog example was just used by me to get you to say something of practical substance instead of repeating trivialities of dog training principles and then telling me that I do not understand marker training which as an ad hominem attack tells me that you have lost your argument.

The fact is that when you are using marker training you are missing the unrepeatable opportunity, where it is efficient to train what is "No!" and the establishment of a leadership position as a default ship sails away. To say that No! is learned when the dog is a pup is illogical in the light of your clicker marker training. that is because the obedience is the most opportune time to teach the pup and dog about leadership position and about No!. If you do not do it during obedience training then you are screwing up the dogs understanding of social relations.
Normally I would not care but the fact is that this type of an approach is harmful and in even slightly dominant dogs it may and often does lead to serious aggression problems which I am trying to correct for decades. So when someone starts talking about teaching the dog commands in a positive non-stress, joyous, not pressure way my hackles go up.

JJ:I keep thinking... ....what could be the missing link in this conversation, and why some are continually only equating marker training with positive only training? And the only thing I can come up with now is that marker training is being mixed up ...and excluded from the basic premise of training, which is: Dogs Behavior brings about a Consequence for the dog. Just because you use operant conditioning when TEACHING with marker training (marking a behavior in time) and positive reinforcement, it does not exclude the basic premise of “training with consequences”. One does not exclude the other in the lifetime of the dog. They co-mingle for the most effective way to get the dog to comply.

Hans:  In the future writing of this post I assure you that I understand that positive  reinforcement and positive punishment means adding something and negative means subtracting.

However

When I am using words positive in a way as "not unpleasant" I'll make a note of it.)

The clicker /marker training by itself is positive ( as in not unpleasant) only. That is in comparison to where others teach the dog commands using all quadrants of operant conditioning via +/- ( as in pleasant and unpleasant)type training. 

 The marker training includes positive reinforcement and negative punishment - basically positive (as in not unpleasant )  type part of operant conditioning. 

Marker training does not involve positive punishment and negative reinforcement ( as in unpleasant). IMO opinion specifically lack of use of negative reinforcement during 1/ learning stage marker training of obedience commands is detrimental to the establishment of leadership position.  And since marker training is also used during conditioning stage the use of teaching od NO! is pushed further down the line and thus the dog learns NO! too late for it to be part of the default*. 

 ( *Default is what the dog learns first he likes most does the best and reverts to under stress) 

 

Prager-

I can’t tell you how and what to use to correct a dog becasue IT DEPENDS! (For the 100th time)

It depends on the dog and the situation, and his stage of learning.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Teaching a dog the meaning of the  word NO? Nothing is easier than that! They learn that at 8 weeks, if that is when you get your dog. Anyone can teach a dog “no”.

Marker training does not rely on only positive. There, I’ve said it a million times now.

I can take away something...I can add something.

Examples of Things to take away:
I can take away his opportunity for that next desired bite, or the pull on the tug, or the ball on a rope.
I can take away a constant low stem that irritates the dog, as soon as he complies.
I can take away his freedom to be “at ease” and relax - a release.
I can take away my time and attention to him.

Or

Examples of adding stuff:

I can add food
I can add praise 
I can add a ecollar stem,
I can add a yank on the leash, yank a prong, or yank on a choke collar.
I can add the above and increase them in duration or strength.
I can add my harsh voice.

All the above are possible consequences that the dog can receive for a certain behavior. But which one is best...depends on so many things. It mostly, exclusively depends on the dog himself! Every dog is different. There, now I have said that a million times here.

I am sorry to everyone reading this tortured thread. But...I have even more to say. I just really need to go now.

ADD: this is why I keep saying not to put marker training into the same basket as only “ positive”  training. ADD2 : This is why I said from start,  Marker Training is good for teaching a specific behavior so you don’t want to correct much while training. ... More so when in proofing stage and late proofing stage. 

 

Jesse: I am sorry to everyone reading this tortured thread.

that's true. reading both of you really triggers the boil of that grey thing, what left of my brain 

It is a marketing ploy. Using the newer members to drive the narrative.

Who are you going to believe?

---

Let me take a moment to also appreciate MrDarcy who reads all the posts regardless of content value and doesn’t get enough credit for that. Cheers to that, as it is long overdue!

 

Admin edit, sarcasim much, oh and I am not the only Admin having to read all the threads as per my job.

Please, please please stop repeating something which nobody disagrees with. Me included.
Yet again even though I explained it you did not get the difference between negative as you are ad nauseam describing in operant conditioning and nobody disagree with and negative as in feeling unpleasant. Maybe you should do more than skim over what I write. Then we would not have to have this ridiculous discussion.

JJ said: Teaching a dog the meaning of the  word NO? Nothing is easier than that! They learn that at 8 weeks, if that is when you get your dog. Anyone can teach a dog “no”.
Questions I have:

1/You say you can teach No! and 8-week old puppy. I agree. I know how I do it. Please tell me How do you do it with your marker training?


2/ What is the commercial professional dog trainer suppose to do when the client brings a dog who is older than 8 weeks - let say 3 years and does not know what effective "No!" is?

I will make it even more concise.
ALL I am saying is that while you can teach the dog obedience commands and even detection and circus tricks and so on, you absolutely can not teach effective universal all-encompassing "emergency brake" NO! with marker training.

Prager says:
Please, please please stop repeating something which nobody disagrees with. Me included.

Prager-

You turned that one around nicely....the “Me Included” part. Are you gaslighting me? What have you and I been going back and forth about until page 16?

I have read every post of yours in great detail, until I realized that you aren’t reading, or aren’t understand the premise of what I am saying.

For your question #1 and #2, I will refer you to my post on top of page 16 (I think)

Jesse says:
Just because you use operant conditioning when TEACHING with marker training (marking a behavior in time) and positive reinforcement, it does not exclude the basic premise of “training with consequences”. One does not exclude the other, in the lifetime of the dog. They co-mingle for the most effective way to get the dog to comply.