I think treat training is cruel. - Page 15

Jesse, I reckon the trouble is that the sort of 'reward only' trainers who operate in this way will not bother to read your explanation of how to bridge behaviours, or anyone else's. This sort of argument comes up on Facebook (I have a couple of excellent Trainers posting on my timeline, people I know and have worked with and trust) and there are some 'modern', 'Positive only', people who repeatedly argue the toss with them about methods and tools, they have been around about 5 minutes but they 'know' better than these guys who have been doing it for years. For them, it is apparently enough to earn their fee to teach the owner to get the dog to SIt and Down on command, then walk away, without puttiing any bridges or extensions in place. [No confidence they can do it / have the patience to take it on the next step ?] Hasten to say: not all modern or positive trainers are like that; but it worries me that so many are, and that, combined with the increase in owners who really ought not to be keeping dogs, dog obedience training in general will nosedive in public perception.

So, as expected you do not have an answer. Only cap out. Or, more likely, you have an answer but can not post it because it would expose the BS of marker-positive only training. Oh yes, I have learned that JJ is CEO of the multimillion company. That is nice but well, I am still waiting to be impressed by the answer to my question. Your answer is either ridiculous or based on a misunderstanding of my question,...which I do not think you misunderstood. You say:" When the dog is reactive or whatever then you just must do more lengthy training." haha.
You must be joking right? So you are on the street or in the woods or in Police action and dog decides to do something dangerous and your answer to the question what you do about it at that moment skips the description of your immediate response during such situation - which is what I am asking you - and go directly to more training with a clicker or whatever marker you are using. Then to muddy water some more when you are re-explaining yet again what everybody here knows and that is how to use a marker training.
JJ you say that my question is a trap question. lol Yes, it is!!! It is a trap to that Positive only trainer who likes you claim that marker training is,...and I qote:" ....... is efficient communication with your dog:
-without stress
-without pressur
-with joy"
While I wait for an honest answer I say malarkey. :)




Joan, eh, Joan then says that her dogs are so perfect that they never make mistake or if they are not perfect then she keeps them locked up and away from the public or wildlife or domestic animals where such mistake may not occur. Of course, the question is being begged how do you teach your dog to behave around animals when you are not allowing your dog to be around them? After all sooner or later in the training process, you need to test your "perfectly trained" dogs and see if they truly are perfect. But if they fail - and here the question I am asking - what do you at that moment of the failure?
So far I am reading a lot of beating around, the bush, cap outs, and wishful thinking.
The answer is obvious but so far nobody touched on it or came near it

Pragre: Joan, eh, Joan then says that her dogs are so perfect that they never make mistake or if they are not perfect then she keeps them locked up and away from the public or wildlife or domestic animals where such mistake may not occur.


If my dogs were perfect, they would not need a command to correct their imperfect behavior. But if you were a trainer I would not need to point that out to you.
And where have I said that I keep my dogs locked up away from public or wildlife or domestic animals? I believe you are projecting.

Young dogs of mine that are not trained to the point of trusting them not to chase deer or livestock are kept under control to prevent them from running off and getting shot or hit by a car, or creating havoc, same thing any responsible owner does....not keep them locked up and away as you seem to relate to.

Here's a one year old male dog of mine, trained and under control around " domestic animals"....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sknzdfidbntf6mj/Gar%20and%20the%20Ducks%2092211%20%281%29.3gp?dl=0

 

And here is a two year old male that I used for keeping this herd of goats back from the feed buckets in the back of the gator...else they dumpd the feed all over the ground where it went to waste. Plus there is a three hundred pound buck that would slam into the fenders of the gator and rare up to threaten us while feeding. These can be dangerous animals and takes and very strong dog to keep them in line...they must respect him or they will slam into him...

Yes, I have a prong on him ...to keep him under control.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/urroooenc0blouo/Otis%20%202%20yr%20old%2C%20goat%20herd%20control.mts?dl=0

 

Prager-
You are outing yourself here.
You twist peoples words, you call them arrogant - which I am an not in a million years, and you set obvious senario traps for them. Nice.

I am not an advocate of positive only training. Stop putting words in my mouth...I have said that in many of my posts here, if you read them through correctly. 

My response to your little scenario...was pretty spot on for the  short post that I did. Your senario shouldn’t happen in the first place, if you know your dog.

And, if YOU are teaching an LE dog...and have sold him as “finished and trained” and the handler takes him on the street without knowing that he is dog reactive, then you are a terrible LE dog trainer, and the fault lies with YOU if something happens.

Do not call marker training the same thing as positive only training. I am going to say one last time that marker training is to TEACH a behavior.

Dog non-reactivity is not a behavior to teach...because you have to literally change the dogs MO. His gut reaction, his autonomous nervous systems reaction.

I can not teach a dog to be non dog reactive like I can teach him to sit because it is visceral in the dog....usually genetic. I have to take that time to change his mindset..and, surprise surprise...with some dogs, one may never be 100 confident that there will not be a dog fight at some point.

So we need different tools for that. Again, each dog is different.

For example, if MY dog is dog reactive when on a leash.
I can do two things...
1.) I can work with my dog to make another dog less threatening.
2.) I can do damage control, by doing proper dog management and not allowing him to get closer than his comfort zone to another dog on leash.

IF I see a dog coming...I will make a wide arch around the other dog to get outside of my dogs tolerance distance. And will over time, and planned sessions, try to get closer and closer to a dog.

If I choose to try to work on it, and try to close the distance of reactivity to another dog, I have to do it slowely. I have to watch my dogs reaction. I have to not allow him to fixate on the other dog. AND I need a person or a trainer with a dog to help me do this slowly.

I can’t do it with granny and her poodle. She would have a heartattack.

If as luck would have it, I am walking down the street, and don’t see the other dog, maybe he comes out of the alley with the owner right in front of us...and my dog goes into lunge/bark, since I know my dog...I am always prepared.

I do not go downtown without the prong collar and I am always alert. I have honed my pull/yank reaction to superspeeds, and I have an extremely loud voice ‘no’  command for those rare occasions.

My voice supersedes me...it booms like  a command  from  God coming down on the dog. I can control my dog with that voice for over 200 yrds...that voice comes out of the depth of me. It is a blast of vibration.

I instantly place myself in front of my dog, as he is at my side anyway, and will not hesitate to give him a hard shove with my knee in his chest to push him behind me.

All this is fine and good for an emergency, but I still have to work on changing the dogs MO over time.

 

 PS: Chasing a squirrel or cat is different. I personally have never had I dog I could Not wean from chasing another animal with pure voice control. ( I’m sure they are out there though.)  

 Dog reactivity is different all together. It comes from a different place in the brain. You should know that.

 

Since I can't lighten the mood anymore, I guess I will get serious.

"I want to add, that I am not writing here for all the regular contributors...because everyone here already know everything that I am writing. And I don’t want to come accross as a blah-blah, know it all either ....because nothing is as humbling as dog training...a dog blowing you off to knock you off your high horse faster than lightning."

-JJ


Thank you for writing this. This is the most remedial subject I have ever read on this site. It ranks up there with, "What Brush To Use". Every single dog trainer in the world uses markers. Even deaf, dumb and blind trainers use markers. Dogs use markers. Teachers use markers. Parents use markers. Traffic lights are markers. Your boss uses markers, and hopefully rewards. Let me repeat! There isn't a dog trainer that doesn't use markers. Rewards are not markers.

I'd like to take the time now to give a shout out to my man, Mr. Darcy! I don't think we give him enough credit. Day after day he is here reading this stuff. We can all take a break, but not him. If you're ever in my neck of the city, I'm buying you a drink. Maker's Mark to stay on topic. You do a good job and don't get any credit. Only credited for the bad. Good job, man!

JJ thank you for your attempt to answer my question. Nice try but no cigars. The point is this. If you train a clicker or marker whatever you want to call it training , you are all positive since as you said such training is
" -without stress
-without pressure
-with joy"
Then you basically say that when sh1t comes down you use a pinch collar and if of the leash you use Godly booming voice to correct the dog.
The problem with that is that if for training you have used only marker training - without stress
-without pressure
-with joy" then the poor dog has no clue what your booming voice means.
Personally, I prefer to train a dog while using all(!!!) 4 quadrants of operant conditioning where I teach the dog what "NO!" means. They ( the 4 quadrants) are not all just -without stress
-without pressure
-with joy" training. Then when dog does something wrong in ANY(!!!!!!!)everyday life situation, then I just say all-encompassing No ! and dog knows what it means. As a matter of fact, I can just whisper it. Ha Ha I guess that is why someone sarcastically called me here Dog Whisperer. Well, and when you need to yell at the dog with God booming voice, then you have failed your training. There is no way that control with "No!" can be achieved with a clicker or any other + marker type training. You look at training as a set of commands while in reality, life with the dog is a continuum of interactions between the handler and the dog where for a dog some are positive and some are negative.
Also, the training where with marker training and with redirecting of attention the clicker trainer conditions a dog to behave properly in each separate and individual box of a situation. They are then taught not to improperly respond to cat,.... and then to dog,.... and then to horse,.... and then and then ....whatever it is it is if not ridiculous then inefficient way to train not to misbehave because there is always one more thing which will surprise the handler and the dog and dog will yet again misbehave in new and also in the old situation. It is only a naivete to think that your dog is ever trained well enough not to ever make a mistake in obedience or misbehave in an everyday social setting. Thus the teaching of universal all-encompassing NO! is of paramount importance, but instead, the clicker crowd keeps on clicking wasting their opportunities to establish a leadership position and to teach the dog the "emergency brake " of NO!
Properly and fairly applied corrections which teach the dog what NO! means done after learning period are of utmost importance. They enable the handler to control the dog on and of leash during the unexpected critical situation and during every day misbehaving and such training enables the handler to establish a leadership position. For that the training cannot be
-without stress
-without pressure
-with joy"
but instead, while fair it at a time to time will be and needs to be unpleasant. You know jing and yang..... The important part is that while the marker training will teach the dog the commands and some select and isolated social skills any of this happy without stress and pressure and with joy horse sh1t will not prepare the dog adequately for everyday life.
Such dog while trained obedience admirably well and "with joy" then becomes social idiot and nuisance. If the dog is not taught that the handler is in a leadership position, which clicking does not, then such dog with even minimal streak of dominance will assume a leadership position and then often does become overly protective or handler aggressive. Such dog quite often ends up dead euthanized which is the ultimate cruelty of treat + training.
 

think Hans is overdramatizing a bit, but I agree quite a bit with his last post, 

looking at Joans video with the goats kind of tells it all, in the second part of video, dog even ignores a down command and needs correction with prong to do what is told, 

if that dog was off line there and then, he would NOT respond to commands, either in which way they were tough

video shows perfectly that the dog, who knows the command, chooses to ignore it, because others triggers override the will to obey, and BIGGER pressure is needit to make him obey

personally, I dont see the use of the prong in this situation as a tool of punishment or cruelty, but rather a tool to snap the dogs focus from the goats and refocus on Joan.

Positive training is fine for teaching, IMO, but not for control, or repair of bad previous training etc, there are different tools needit

Correct assessment of the dog with the goats, Duke.

That dog is hard enough to take on those goats and keep them litterally at bey or in line. He is NOT a herding dog and will kill a goat if I am not there to intervein. When that big buck was added to the herd, it became too dangerous to go in with the herd to feed.
I had Otis loose with me a time before that day the vid was taken and the buck took Otis down because Otis was experienced with the does and the previous buck that was easier to intimidate. But he learned about that buck real fast.
(Make no mistake, some of the does were dangerous...the solid brown one he gave an extra eyeball is another that butted him with all 175 pounds and horns slamming into him....so he knows her).
So any goat that litterally knocked the air out of Otis received extra aggression from Otis.
All in all, Otis was exactly what I needed for us to feed the goats safely and without them dumping 20$ worth of feed all over the ground ( the goats rather starve than eat off the ground)

PS, Otis either ran along loose for nearly half mile up the hill, or if the weather was too hot, rode standing in the back of the gator to save him for working the goats.

Summarizing Duke's comment on marker training:

First TEACH the behavior, then after the dog has learned it...TRAIN the dog.

Enjoyed the videos Joanro. Thanks for shaing them.