What makes a - Page 3

Gefaehlich,

I am sorry, but when I read your description, it almost sounded as if you were talking about the Miss America pageant.

"So what makes a show dog a show dog?"

perception(everyones opinion is different), priticipation(what does the dog do more of, run in a ring or schutzhund trials), performance(how does said dog place both in the ring and on the field).

while there are show dogs that can work and working dogs that can show well, the bottom line is that they excell in the area they were bred for.

at the present time,  

show dogs  are bred to pass trails,  have good confirmation, and run in a ring really good.

working dogs are bred  within the  standard to get a show rating and korung, and do really good at schutzhund trials.

i know my thoughts are a generalization, but im not one for drawing things out.

john

Rus,

njet, my dear! I am not going to start a threat with accomplishments. But if you think that you should, go right ahead! As to what you might have done to deserve my attention? Well, your guess is as good as mine! My beef is with your derogative comments about showline dogs! Enough said!

Yvette,

for me a show dog is a dog which is actively campaigned in the show ring, regardless of lines. A working dog is a dog which is used for working (SAR, police, customs, border patrol, etc. - anything that requires a service to people). A sport dog is a dog which competes actively with its handler (Schutzhund, agility, ring etc.). For me, that is a big difference to a working dog. These activities have nothing do to with which lines the dog comes from.

When you get into the question of different lines, Speaknow already explained it. In Germany, not too many people use the term "Schaulinien" or "showlines". that is a term used here in the U.S. The dogs in Germany are usually defined by "Hochzuchtlinien" (highlines) and "Leistungslinien" (workinglines). These terms derive from an older breeding system the SV had implemented. In the 50s and 60s (maybe also still the 70s), there were three different kinds of breedings possible:

1) Leistungszucht: These dogs only had herding or Schutzhund titles, nothing else (no breed survey, no show rating).

2) Koerzucht.: These dogs did not have any working titles but were entered into some sort of breed suitability test, similar to the ZtP.

3) Koer- und Leistungszucht. These dogs had both, working titles, breed survey, and now also show ratings (up until 10 years or so ago, not exactly sure of the date, a show rating was not necessary for a breed survey). These are the so called pink papers, which means that the first two generations in the pedigree came out of Koer- und Leistungszucht.

Nowawdays, breedings under 2) are not possible anymore. The so-called white papers are the breedings done under 1), although some additional requirements have been added. One is also a mandatory show rating. In Germany, hardly anybody breeds with white papers anymore, all (including the workingline breeders) breed Koer- und Leistungszucht. The word "Hochzucht" is an old German term which came into existence when Max von Stephanitz implemented the show and breed survey system. Leistungszucht back then was just for pure function, nothing else. The "highlines" were more refined since  importance was put into "form" as well (Rittmeister von Stephanitz was a big proponent of "Form follows Function" and that is why this system of shows and breed surveys was created after all). A very knowledgable person to talk to is SV judge Lothar Quoll. He has an immense knowledge about old lines and could tell you about some which are now extinct. There are also some people around SV judge Leonhard Schweikert (he has the copyrights) who created a database in which you can trace all dogs (workingline, GDR, highlines etc.) to the old foundation females used to create that breed. These females were attributed for certain characteristics in function and form which is still valid nowadays. Here is the link to that database: www.schaeferhunde-info.de The use of that is not free, so anybody interested needs to contact the owner (click on "Zugang neu"). The owner will give you a 14 day free test trial time. I used it and found it pretty interesting. It truly shows that all our dogs come from the same foundation.

Chris

Progress.  We're starting to get some more specifics in the discussion. 

A few points of cotention:

"I think in this case, we have to go back to the standard.  Things like "red enough" and "plush enough" are subjective. But things like front/rear angulation, position of the withers/mid-section/croup, head pieces (eye color, ear sets, etc.), correct movement, correct shoulders, toplines, straight fronts (meaning no easty/westy), etc.... these types of things are spelled out in the standard. "

A V-rated kkl1 workingline dog can have all the right angles and still be tossed to the back of the class.  Why?  This has nothing to do with the standard because the standard never makes mention of the red-ness of the coat, and in fact the plush coat ("long stockhaar") is merely acceptable.  The short "stock" coat is the preferred type.

Clearly, it's NOT just about "the standard".  Otherwise, an all-black dog (or a sable, or a bicolor) would have equal chance to be in the front of the class as the black and reds. 

So being that we have come to the point that conformation to the standard is not enough, in and of itself, for a dog to even make the front of the class, much less Sieger, perhaps some folks could shed some light on the unwritten rules.

Furthermore, I think it's kind of funny, albeit in a sad way, for some to mention that training and titles are also important requirements to place well in a conformation show because here again it reinforces the duplicity of how we judge the two types.  It is not unheard of for a showline kennel to proudly plaster their web site with their #1 stud - SchH3 but with 7X-7X-8X scores.  It's one thing for a starry-eyed novice to beam with pride at gaining the first SchH3 with such scores, but for an established breeder, charging big bucks for puppies, to parade such a dog as the pinnacle of their breeding program??? 

Chris, good post - some concrete info.  Thank you for contributing.

not sure why you fuss so much over “red-ness”.

... judging by the looks of the dogs in the Sieger shows, a LOT of people are making a "fuss" over red-ness because all the top dogs are black and red.  This is apparently one of the unwritten rules I was alluding to:  all top dogs must be black and red.  When was the last time that a sable, or bi-colored, or black GSD won top marks at a show on either side of the Pond?  Hmmm?

...duplicity?

I can't think of a well-established working line breeder who readily flaunts a top stud with such lackluster scores.  Please draw my attention to such a kennel if I speak in error.

I presume this discussion is about SV zuchtschau dogs.  Any SV registered GSD that meets the minimum requirements for entrance in an SV zuchtschau can be shown.  If the dog is good enough it can win a high placing, especially at the smaller regional or landsgruppen shows.  A fair number of SV working line (WL) GSDs have received V ratings in zuchtschaus and a few in the past have received the coveted VA rating. Any GSD that meets the standard, has a lot of prior landsgruppen wins, is in good condition, double handles well, and has good drive on the lead can place highly.  And there are some WL GSDs that have fabulous conformation and easily attain the V rating at a landsgruppen show.  Then,  most of these the owners quit the zuchscau ring and again specialize in competing to win in the profung show (this is where their training emphasis goes after they have proved their point on their WL dogs great conformation--which is a ticket to a fair number of breeding they wouldn't otherwise have for a stud dog).  And similarly, when some zuchschau GSDs have attained some success in the profung, the owners stop this competition and again emphasize zuchtschau which is their first preference, after they have proved their point.  Or like the renown Kirshental kennels, after attaining HGH achievements, they again re-emphasize their commitment to zuchtschau competition. 

There are actually quite a few profung GSDs in Germany and Europe which if their owners changed their emphasis to zuchtschau exclusively, could attain high places in the Sieger Show (but their dogs would have to be shown and win a lot during the pre-season at the landsgruppen shows so that all the key judges knew the dogs and liked them).  Here is the key thing, it is a well known fact that any good GSD must have been shown a lot and attained good success at these landsgruppen shows first before having a chance at a high placing at the Sieger Show.  Most working Line folks just don't want to shift their emphasis to make the zuchtschau their primary thing (which it would have to be).  I don't know why, but almost all the really superb WL dogs which can win high places in the zuchtschau ring, appears to be one of the following: very dark black sable, solid  blacks, or dark bi-colors.  Here are the big questions: if the WL folks with dogs that can easily win V or better shiftyed to zuchtscahu exclusively, would their puppies of future generations quickly lose their top schutzhund potential on average?  And if the zuchtschau folks shifted into profung emphasis with puppies bred from KK1, V rated GSDs only, would the puppies quickly lose their conformation potential on average?

http://home.flash.net/~astroman/schutzhundmyth.html

This would be a topic for an entirely different thread.  However, suffice to say that this person's view of the SchH world is quite warped compared to any club or group that I've trained with.  It is incorrect to assume that trainers across the country are using pain as the means to earn high points as common practice.  In fact, if anyone would dare to practice such abusive misuse of the e-collar in front of my dog friends, that idiot would likely end up with an e-collar wrapped around their own neck. 

A sad commentary not at all representative of competitve SchH trainers as a whole.  'nuf said.

Chris, A question if I may. I'm hoping you know the answer of it not could perhaps check with the two SV judges you mentioned.

My understanding  is that the von Stephanitz maintained an open registry - open to any active working herding dog- that that was their qualification for being entered into the registry. Some of his yearly reports and letters where he talks about the neccessity of returning to the wellspring of working herding dogs suggest this but I've never been able to find actual written confirmation of it.  Many years ago it used to be quite difficult to import a dog and register it with AKC and I was told this was part of the reason - the fact that they viewed the SV as open registry and therefore subject to suspicion.  I was also told that this tradition of allowing in working herding dogs was continued definitely up until 1938 and possibly into the 50s.

Is this true that initially the SV maintained an open registry? If so for how long?  Was this perhaps the origin of the Leistungszucht or  Koerzucht?  Also at what point in time was the  Koerzucht discontinued?

Thanks for the very informative post above - its one of the clearest explanations I have seen.  Hope you can help with my question.

Speaknow, that is a very good article and one that makes real sense.  I always like the breed surveyed SV GSD that hasn't been "overtrained" in Sch.  One that is naturally alpha and will defend his family and turf instinctively, using reasoning and common sense, able to judge what a real threat is and deal with it appropriately and incrementally as needed.