What makes a - Page 2

the breed standard is my answer;)

im not really in to the show thing its far to complicated , germanic / english? my dogs are all from working lines but the last litter we introduced a showline and got lovley conformation fantastic drive and we got what we set out to do good lookin working dogs ..................the only problem was the fact that they were mainly sable,so we get thrown out with the rubish!!

that to me is rediculous.

Shouldnt it go by bloodlines?

Was it the Martins who wanted the pretty dogs back in the late 70's?  Didnt they like the red and black with a little more roach in the back?  Isnt this about the time people began breeding more for looks? 

I consider dogs that come from these lines the show dogs. 

Older or "working" lines that continue to breed for the original stanard and working ability are what I consider working lines.

Dogs that are a mix of Working and show dont fit either catagory.  If you were looking for a working prospect you may be better off staying away form these lines.

That being said...not all working lines will work...but you have a better chance of getting a worker out of these lines.

I would guess that you have to go by the indidual dog in the end.

Hmmm... some of these answers are a bit wishy-washy folks.  ;)

So if it's the bloodlines that make a showLINE dog, then which bloodlines are these?  Who's got the list?  And who approves the addition or deletion of lines from the hallowed "list"?

Conversely, which workingLINES are the "real" workinglines?  What makes a workingline dog a workingline dog?

Pardon me if I don't buy into the philosophy that "any dog can be a show dog".  BS!  We've got "the split" and pretending it's not there doesn't make it go away.  So, how do we define the charcteristics of the "sides"?

Yvette I just want to say I really enjoy your posts.  Whenever you start one you always ask interesting questions that makes people think.  I hope you will continue to draw out the people who actually contribute information and opinions based on education and experience.  Keep up the good work and thanks for being one of the people on here I enjoy reading.

i dont know if ive got this right (im a bit of a novice) but a

showline dog has a pedigree that inclues alot of CH dogs from conformation shows..

working lines have a pedigree full of working qualifications..ie.seigers.

if im wrong i appolagise please feel free to correct me;)

What makes a workingline dog a workingline dog?

Its and its progeny & ancestors` reliability in any situation. These dogs` ability to react faster then a human being or a show dog ( because nobody set such a goal in show breeding) can do it. 

Silbersee , what have I done to deserve your personal attention?

Looks like we are expressing our views here and not sharing some of our accomplishments with you. If you are really interested, you could start a new thread. It could be called... e.g. "Our accomplishments".  Good luck!

I think some folks are still holding back....

First, I'd like to take exception to this quote:

"A show dog is a dog that has the correct combinations of good genetic background, physical characteristics, correct character, proper training, and an owner who is able to realize the greatness of his dog and is willing to do what it takes to train and campaign the dog."

It's been decades since a working dog has won the BSZS, or since a show dog has won the BSP.  Likewise with the NASS and SchH USA Nationals.  It is clearly insufficient for a dog to have good conformation and training to be a contender at any of the Sieger shows.  There are many V-rated kkl1 workingline dogs, and none of them would stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning Sieger. 

How black and red is "red enough" to win honors as a show dog?  How plush is "plush enough" of a coat? 

If being a showLINE dog is about bloodlines, then which bloodlines are "officially" the show lines?  What if a top kennel in Germany started out by producing working dogs and then switched to show - at what point do they "become" an accepted showline kennel?

Or conversely, what if a kennel begain their breeding program producing showline dogs and then switched to working dogs - at what point are they no longer considered a showline kennel?

I'm all ears....

Yvette

policemom, thanks for your compliment. 

I'll take a shot at a few of your questions...

It's been decades since a working dog has won the BSZS, or since a show dog has won the BSP.  Likewise with the NASS and SchH USA Nationals.  It is clearly insufficient for a dog to have good conformation and training to be a contender at any of the Sieger shows.  There are many V-rated kkl1 workingline dogs, and none of them would stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning Sieger. 

I think we have to decide what we are really looking for in this discussion.  Are we looking for a "show dog" or are we looking for next year's Sieger?  Any dog that can V in the German ring is, in my opinion, a true show dog.  I think it's important to remember that in order to V a dog not only has to have correct structure but it also MUST be titled!!!!  In the German ring, show dogs are not all about looks.  I'd also have to admit that just having a V rating does not mean a whole lot... I've seen some ugly V dogs... but it's definitely a start or a preliminary qualification.
 

There are "working line" dogs that are V rated.  To try and answer your question, I think I'd have to say that these dogs ARE show dogs if they are actively shown.  Sure they'll always finish at the back half of the class... but if they were more correct to the standard then we would see more of them at NASS/BSZS.  This is why I think we need to take our good working, V rated workingline dogs and breed for working ability AND structure. 

.

How black and red is "red enough" to win honors as a show dog?  How plush is "plush enough" of a coat? 

I think in this case, we have to go back to the standard.  Things like "red enough" and "plush enough" are subjective. But things like front/rear angulation, position of the withers/mid-section/croup, head pieces (eye color, ear sets, etc.), correct movement, correct shoulders, toplines, straight fronts (meaning no easty/westy), etc.... these types of things are spelled out in the standard. 

It's also important to remember that simply having correct structure is not going to get any dog to the top.... the dog has to be trained for the ring, titled in Schutzhund, have good hips/elbows, and have an owner who is making the most of his dog by doing the titling and training and by entering shows and hiring handlers, etc.