Training the heel - Page 1

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COGSD

by COGSD on 27 October 2016 - 13:10

Hey everyone,

I'm getting ready to start training the heel, and had a question for you. As I watch the "focused heel" there's a couple things I don't like about it, like the dog hugging the leg and having to watch the handler's face the entire time. It seems pretty unnatural for the dog to have to do this.

Is there a more relaxed style of heeling that can be taught and still achieve a good score in Shutzhund/IPO?

Thanks in advance.

dragonfry

by dragonfry on 27 October 2016 - 16:10

I too hate the neck crank heel style currently popular. And because i do obedience in other sports that severely penalize you for bumping, crowding and "moving in an un-natural way" i had to develop a slightly modified heel. I want my dog to watch me, not gaze into my eyes like a robot. Dog's have a field of view much wider then our own. So i don' feel obligated to make my dog stare at my face.
I have only passed the BH. But the judge was much less critical of my heeling with a non-herder breed then he was of the people neck crank heeling with herders.
Do what seem right for you and your dog. Attention yes! Robotic and uncomfortable movement, no.
Fry

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 October 2016 - 17:10

I don't know what the remedy is ... but I hate it, I hate it, I hate it ! In the GSD world we have done a complete 'about face' on heelwork over the years - I can still remember the days when handlers/dogs were heavily penalised for 'leaning on'. A few years ago I got chances to work a friend's Border Collies and found that actually trying to walk normally with a dog wrapped around my leg was HORRIBLE. GSDs being taller, its a bit less uncomfortable as a style, but I still disliked it enough that it was part of why I gave up doing competative Obedience with my Shepherds.

by Bavarian Wagon on 27 October 2016 - 19:10

High scoring dogs don't lean on their handlers, they can't touch them or impede them in any way. Maybe if you guys would actually attend competitive events or train with high level trainers you'd know that instead of spreading lies about what the heeling actually is. Anyone that wants to claim that heeling style is why they left the sport...you left because you couldn't train it the right way. On top of that, rarely if ever at a club level will you get greatly penalized for having a heel where the dog breaks eye contact. Btw...most high level people don't train eye contact anymore, they train a focus point.

You can train any kind of heel you want. As long as the dog is in position you'll pass. Heeling as a whole isn't worth that many points and you'll lose maybe 1 or 2 for a dog that doesn't have laser focus during the J pattern. You probably won't even lose that to tell the truth. There are a lot more expensive exercises in an IPO routine which are much harder to teach where you'll probably end up losing most of your points. Truthfully...if you're just now starting to "get ready to train the heel" you're already too late and will probably not get the type of heel that high level competitors are expected to have.

Without that focus, you'll have slower motion exercises because the dog won't be focused and react quickly enough to your command, so you'll lose a half point to a point there, but it won't cost you as much as people want to claim it does. A heel where the dog is wrapping or impeding the handler in any way would cost you way more points than a heel with a dog just walking next to you. At a lower level, you'll also not be hit that much for your dog lacking drive and not showing a powerful heel.

All things equal, in a given trial, a dog without focused heeling will not beat a dog that does have focused heeling. But say a dog with focused heeling blows a retrieve and a dog without does all the exercises...a dog without that focus can still win. Lack of focused heel will probably cost you 3-5 points across the whole routine. Also, the vast majority of dogs doing IPO do not heel like the dogs you see at the WUSV or other world level competitions...most dogs don't have the drive to keep that kind of focus throughout the whole phase, and most handlers don't even know how to teach it.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 October 2016 - 19:10

A lot of dogs doing IPO don't really Heel at all,  at least outside the actual Obedience/ Heelwork portion, looking at Irina's and other videos of the 'work' at German Siegers !

The Collies I had goes with were already trained, BW, and to a high level; so what they did was nothing to do with good or bad training BY ME.


by Bavarian Wagon on 27 October 2016 - 20:10

The dogs aren't expected to formal heel during the attack out of the blind. They're expected to just walk next to the handler and not break until the helper comes out for the attack. It should almost be like a back transport. If the dog was focus heeling the response time to the attack would be delayed and could be considered faulty. You should ask for clarification before making more assumptions, the sport isn't too difficult, but there are different expectations for different exercises.

Also...the bitework portion of the sieger show and breed survey is not an IPO routine, it is also closer to the protection phase of IPO than the obedience phase. There are definitely different expectations of heeling in those phases. Dog SHOULD NOT be thinking obedience during the bitework portion of a sieger show or breed survey.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 October 2016 - 20:10

I know its not required; I was being ironic, because what they DO do in approaching the blind is nothing like walking calmly to heel ! Used to be expected that the obedience carried over into the rest of the exercises, the dogs were expected to apply sound, undriven behaviour, and the handlers to demonstrate they were in complete control. I realise that is all ancient history to you, BW, and therefore counts as nothing important. Have a look at some of the old films that are on here from eg the 30s and 50s.

When the dogs were not expected to 'focus' ie look back and up at the handler, the delay of which you speak was minimal, because they were already looking to their front. Sometimes more modern is not necessarily an improvement.


by Bavarian Wagon on 27 October 2016 - 21:10

Obedience is still expected to carry over...what are you talking about? Clearly the dogs are expected to stay by the owners side. The obedience during B phase is expected to be higher today than it was in those videos from the 30s and 50s you talk about. Obedience and control in C phase is also expected to be way higher than it was back then. You're kidding yourself if you think the handlers had to show complete control...today's control is way higher than anything back then was. You can watch videos of plenty of trials where dogs are body lengths ahead of handlers during transports and still given V scores.

The dogs are not expected to focus on handlers today in C phase. They're expected to stay in position and watch the helper so that there is no delay...a dog focus heeling during the attack out of the back transport is FAULTY. A delay in B phase occurs during motion exercises when the dog isn't 100% focused. A dog with focus will generally sit, down, or stand faster than one looking around and not focusing on the command. I've yet to see anything but a pressured slow sit or down in the videos you speak of, and rarely do you see a dog stop on a dime for a stand...3-4 steps isn't out of the normal and the dogs still got full points for the exercise. Do you even know which exercises I'm talking about? What phases they're in? Little less reading old books and going to watch IPO trials (especially competitive trials) would greatly help you understand what judges expect and what they take points for. Especially listening to critiques.

There is VERY VERY LITTLE actual heeling that needs to be demonstrated in C phase. As long as your dog is by your side and heeling there is actually no expectation of the dog to focus on the handler's face. During the set up to the prevention of the escape the dog doesn't need to focus heel, and going up field for the long bite the dog doesn't need to focus heel. Control is all that's expected. People train/expect a focused heel because it helps with control, but it's not necessary at any level as long as your dog doesn't break.

Q Man

by Q Man on 27 October 2016 - 23:10

You can and should train a "Heel" where the dog does pay attention to you the Handler...And since you're just starting out I don't think you have to worry about too much attention and the "crank neck" type ob...
It's not how much attention you ask for it's how much compulsion you use to keep them there when they look away...
I'm not sure how you're planning on training whether it be Motivational or Compulsion but it does matter in what you get and what kind of attitude your dog shows...

~Bob~

by sonora on 28 October 2016 - 00:10

Hi cogsd,
I always looked at training, Obe, Agli,Schutzhund/IPO, etc. as fun. because I'm in controll.
What is important is , the requirment for the particular exercise in the sport.
as well as what the judges look for and how the judging is done.
where and why points are deducted.
I have always claimed that the position of the dog is most important,
the dogs shoulder should be in line with your knee.
As we seek an alert dog keen to preform well, we keep the dog from being distracted
paying attention to the handler. Thus we train the dog in drive.


All above have given excellent advice I only wish they were around when i started training.
I always enjoy reading their contributions, thank you guys.





 


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