by Lobovonder on 28 January 2022 - 14:01
My post was not meant to antagonize you or upset you.If it did I am sorry. The fact remains that you are stating what you think the majority of truckers are trying to pass as a message.The fact that many groups are joining this "convoy" but not all share the same objectives.What saddens me is that in the end many people won't remember what the truckers were asking. Most truckers are vaccinated.The proportion of people with double vaccination in my province (Quebec) is of 90% and I think (although not certain) that the truckers must be the same or close to it.
Many truckers are actually asking for the sanitary conditions to be lightened such as in truck stops for food,showers etc.Very little about the mask mandates.
Legally the health services COULD enforce mandatory vaccination for all here in Quebec and that would be legal,they have decided not to but could and it would have nothing to do with our Charter of Rights.
As for the effectiveness of the vaccination program here in Quebec we can see the positive effects.As for the statistics on the dead victims of covid,and the hospitalized with grave symptoms I will take my info from the health care workers who actually have first hand knowledge.
As for the history of the political process in my country,I am very aware of where we have been and where we now are.
Someone once gave my a word of advice "sometimes in a race,you can be so far behind that you think you are first".
So when I look at the US and how well things are going there,I shrug and say,well we are not that bad!
Have a good day!
by Rik on 28 January 2022 - 15:01
Rudy pretty much disbanded the mafia in NYC. maybe he is old now and maybe some stupid stuff, but he was absolutely one of the most competent in his day.
by TIG on 28 January 2022 - 16:01
Lobo, not upset.
I deal in facts - that has been my focus for my life - as a scientist, as a LEO, as a lawyer, as a researcher ( I joke I'm a Peter Pan - haven't decided what I want to be when I grow up).
I am 72. What saddens me the most about the last two years is the near total lack of critical thinking and assessment by normal everyday people who should be the backbone and strength of our republics. Most have not even bothered to attempt to think, look, question. They allowed themselves to be panicked, to be overcome by fear without so much as a thought to discern for themselves. They went along because it was easier and did not require the effort of using the gray matter within their heads.
It is particularly sad because today our technology allows us to access pertinent information in minutes or hours that previously would have taken days, weeks, months and years. Note that I am not saying it is always easy. Corporations and governments attempt to shield information that makes them look bad ( FDA trying to impose a 75 year delay on release of public information!!) This has been acerbated by that same technology having the ability to block users and data and information.
However as I noted before If you just bothered to look you could fill binders with reputable information that give the lie to the narrative pushed worldwide. The .012 percent and 1.5% death rates I cited for my county hold across the board state and nations across the world. You can find this in the CDC data, the WHO data, the statistics from John's Hopkins and myriad of peer reviewed studies - IF you just look. Why is that so difficult??
When I came back this fall, I went out for breakfast with a dear friend who is the backbone of the small parish I attend.
Churches were targeted in this state. We were locked out when movie theaters were open When forced by lawsuits to allow us to open , the state demanded we make reservations, keep lists of who came, limit #s, no singing and on and on ad infinitum. None of wh I complied with and unfortunately none of which were challenged by our Bishop who was hiding under his bed someplace. Contrast this with Mass at the S.D. State fair led by the Bishop 500+ strong singing our hearts out nary a mask in sight.
So at breakfast I inquired at the status of things at the parish and if things had changed. They had not and my friend just kept murmuring I must follow the rules, I must follow the rules. I sat there thinking how sad, so so sad - she is a " Good German". If you do not know what that reference means I suggest you look it up.
It is the path to perdition.
by hexe on 29 January 2022 - 03:01
If the public health programs requiring vaccination against diphtheria, polio and smallpox had to withstand the absurdities that vaccination against COVID 19 is encountering in the US, we'd be a nation of pock-skinned adults in iron lungs, leg braces or walking braces, and the number of children's graves in our cemeteries would be devastating.
by mrdarcy on 29 January 2022 - 04:01
Tig I understand your feelings but most members that come here do not want this type of post on a dog forum that's why the Off Topic forum was created by Oli. I can assure you this type of thread is what stopped a lot of posters from coming here, and the forums are only a very small part of this site it is mainly a Pedigree Database. The forums are not what keeps this site up, they can be helpful but not crucial.
by TIG on 29 January 2022 - 11:01
Good God Hexe
All is lost if someone like you does not understand the difference between classic vaccines which STOP and PREVENT disease and these untested technologies that do neither.
The " vaccinated" continue to get and spread Covid - even tho we were told they would not. However when the evidence became overwhelming that it was happening and these were not merely "breakthru" infections MAGICALLY the narrative changed to well you get less severe illness and even that is becoming questionable now for several reasons. Oh and you just need a booster er ah and another booster and er ah ...
Gilbralta & Isreal are two of the most heavily vaccinated nations at greater than 99% and 91% levels. Isreal is on its FOURTH shot. Guess what currently 75,000 Covid infections per day in Israel (note based on tests not symptoms but like labeled Covid deaths - a different discussion).
Original claims for Pfizer & Moderns were 90 - 95 % effectiveness in PREVENTING transmission & illness & stopping the virus. Have you forgotten that in one short year? If it had been even remotely true then perhaps you could bring up polio etc. But not even remotely true.
There have been two recent studies released showing recent infections break along the lines of 23 % unvaxxed to 67% vaxxed. So vexed are 3x more likely to be infected than the unvaxxed.. Tell me how that compares to polio vaccine. Comparing these shots to polio, smallpox vaccines is simply untenable and unreasonable.
And then of course there is the whole issue of absolute legal immunity from liability for harm which should have informed you and the refusal of pharmaceutical companies to share the underlying data on the drugs and trials. See the British Medical Journal piece on that released yesterday.
Ok Mr. Darcy not to worry I'm done.
PS Btw Hexe re that fear of masses of unvaxxed, unwashed running around and creating havoc and destruction in their wake - CA one of most restricted and compliant state vs South Dakota one of least restricted- guess what Covid deaths as a percentage of population virtually identical. Hmmm.
PPS Re the original claims from supposed trials run by and for the vaccine producing companies as opposed to the traditional more neutral trials that vaccines were 90- 95% successful in PREVENTING transmission and disease - how to you square that with what real time use has shown. Do you think perhaps this testifies to the veracity of some of the whistleblowers who reported that Pfizer had deliberately ignored, changed and massaged the numbers. After all what did they had to lose. Guanteed buyers therefore income and no liabilities. All good.
by Sunsilver on 29 January 2022 - 14:01
Tig, statistics I've seen prove the vaccines do help prevent the spread of the virus, and those who are vaccinated have lighter cases if they do catch it, and rarely need to be hospitalized. Some hospitals are overburdened - locally, many surgeries and tests have been cancelled because of the large number of COVID patients. I could tell you a few other stories I've heard from friends, about their family member not being able to get prompt treatment and nearly dying due to the hospitals being maxed to the limits by COVID, but I know it will likely do nothing to change your opinion.
Vaccination has been politicized - fewer people are vaccinated in the red states, and this is fueling the wave.
I'm just going to briefly express my opinion here, then leave. We can argue about this until the cows come home, and never reach any agreement. I've done it before on other boards, and don't really care to do it here. It will only stir up bad feelings, and I like and respect you too much to do that.
It seems people can find statistics to back up whatever they believe about COVID. But there's one statistic a lot of people need to look at. The United States still ranks # 1 on the Worldmeter for the number of COVID cases. WHY is that?
Which countries have the lowest number of cases per 100,000 population? Almost without exception, it's the African countries. They knew their medical systems couldn't cope with large numbers of sick people, so they locked down hard and fast - masking, social distancing, the works. Yes, it's hit them hard economically, but maybe they valued human lives more than money.
IN contrast, in America, Trump just couldn't wait to reopen the country. I can't post a picture here, but I remember Time magazine's front cover had the headline on it: There's a way to reopen the country, President Trump, but THIS ISN'T IT!
by Sunsilver on 29 January 2022 - 15:01
Here's the cover:
by TIG on 29 January 2022 - 17:01
Unlike many I read across the spectrum good, bad and indifferent and THEN apply critical reasoning.
I do not believe in echo chambers and could not have been successful as a researcher if I did. I learned years ago the statistical relationships between search accuracy and breadth. They are inversely related. The broader search returns a far higher # of articles but with lower specificity so as a researcher you must do much more work separating the wheat from the chaff. But the flip side of that is if you use a tightly focused narrow search ( which I well know how to create) you are guaranteed to miss helpful information. So I prefer to separate the wheat from the chaff.
As noted, I do not believe in echo chambers tho perhaps unfortunately you may since you seem bent on making the conversation re Trump when the conversation is not about him.
Would love to see your evidence that lockdown actually worked in Africa . You may want to read these
Meanwhile you might want to look up the discussions related to high vit D levels since they are solidly associated with lower Covid disease and death and there has been ongoing discussions re the role that plays in Africa since they get much more natural vitamin D than do Northern industrialized nations. There are also theories about more robust natural immunity systems (lowers chance of the overwhelming response to inflammation) due to much higher exposure on a daily basis to pathogens than in the Western industrialized world and less reliance on things like antiseptic soaps that merely encourage antibiotic resistance..
My family is Irish so I was teethed on the idea and importance of a good enthusiastic discussion. What I find interesting these days is when presented with ideas they don't like especially heaven forbid if those ideas are backed up by facts, statistics, articles, reference sources many these days simply go away in a huff rather than addressing the information presented, as it appears you are about to do. I find this incredibly sad that we can not communicate with a dispassionate exchange of ideas.
Btw in the states , those that reopened have no worse outcomes than those locked in fear. See my note above re California and South Dakota. Plus please also note there have been far higher Covid deaths under Biden since you seem to want to make this about the orangeman.
The bottom line for me is this - on a population basis this virus has a survivability rate of between 98.5% to 99.98%.
As I wrote to George Bush after 9/11, there is not enough cotton batting and barb wire in the world to keep us 100% safe. Our freedom is in the risks we choose to take and yes freedom is risky. Even if there was enough cotton batting, I hate to break it to you - death comes to us all at some point.
If you are over 80, overweight, have co- morbidities make what choices you want or need to make but I am also allowed to make my choices that is the difference between a free society and a dictatorship.
I have lived LIFE these last two years with no fear. You just might want to try it. It can be exhilarating.
by Sunsilver on 29 January 2022 - 19:01
I am a cancer survivor, and chemo damaged my breathing. On a good day, my oxygen sats are just barely in the normal range. I can't afford to get COVID.