Structure & Movement - Page 4

Hi Gem, look at the complete dog and not just the parts is absolutely right. To do otherwise is to Fault judge. As I have said many times, IMO the only fault that should be penalised first time, EVERY time is a faulty Character/Temperament. All other faults should be assessed alongside the virtues. You made a good point on the judging of the dog who wasn't built too well but compensated by using everything he had to his best advantage on the move. Some think too much emphasis is put on movement I would dissagree (providing judge isnt moving dogs around & around just for the sake of it). The motivation & ability to move with effeciency, endurance & attitude is essential for a working dog. Possibly the most important requirement after Character & Temperament. Soundness in Mind & Body go hand in hand in my book. Sugarfoot, your stab above appears sharp enough to me:-) Regards Sue B

With a more limited forward swing of hindquarters, I can’t see how dog would produce more drive with flatter croup. It may show more of a ‘flying trot’ but this can’t be as efficient endurance-wise for forward movement as that produced by better croup. Sugarfoot, I'm pointing out there are some breeders and judges who want the flater croup with the movement that comes with it. lengthing the stiffle(lower thigh) will take out the kick up. there are many ways to change the movements. Ithe more balanced shepherds are more enjoyable to look at. all the struggleing some do makes me tired when watching them. useing generalities makes for a tough discussion, sometimes its better to use examples, we would have to use the same shepherd. SueB, no temperment, no dog, every other virtue is worthless without good character. I don't like to see too much movement either, they should be moved enough for looking at endurence. some look great for hundred feet. Regards

Hi Gem, When you speak above of flatter croup, do you mean one that is flatter than Standard recommends – I can’t see judges suggesting this! You said that lengthening the lower thigh would take out the ‘kick up’. I don’t quite understand, but the kick-up spoken of by ecs is result of croup being too steep – not flatter. It is also not the same thing as preferred direction of thrust into the back as mentioned in my previous post. A steep croup here, and the more upward direction of drive, only tries to lift hindquarters. I totally agree about wanting to see ‘balanced shepherds’ – perhaps we’re speaking somewhat at cross-purposes here? Regards.

When you speak above of flatter croup, do you mean one that is flatter than Standard recommends – I can’t see judges suggesting this! You said that lengthening the lower thigh would take out the ‘kick up’. I don’t quite understand, but the kick-up spoken of by ecs is result of croup being too steep – not flatter. Hi sugarfoot, I need to ask, do you show German Shepherds. I've seen several angles for correct croups posted, from 23 to 30 degrees, for example, one breeder may feel 30 is too steep, another may like any degree in between or a 20 or 32. then you have those breeders and judges that show what comes out of the litter. :) I havn't seen the dog ecs posted about, its unlikely a steeper croup will cause kick up. the steeper the croup the less follow threw. there may be another issue.

Hi Gem, Whether you, ecs or I have shown countless animals or none has little relevance to very basic points on anatomy made previously. The knowledge or motivations of some judges is also not beyond question. (I’m sure that SueB will be the first to agree). I thus only have to look at stretched-out lunacy of hind limbs of a number of ‘champions’ to wonder at how this eventuated! (What did Pineridge call them? Mix-masters?) We also seem still to be very much speaking at cross-purposes – perhaps minor scrutiny of what’s been said before is in order? The ‘kick-up’ spoken of by ecs is not related to any particular dog: it relates to the basic anatomical relationship between steeper angle of croup and the way it automatically restricts arc of backward hindquarters swing. If you wanted to kick up high and I held an intervening plank half way you might ‘kick-up’ the plank somewhat, but you wouldn’t be able to go much higher, would you? This apt term is his, but no vet or similar expert would dispute the basic underlying facts. He also explained all this in detail previously. You are quite correct that there is a range of applicable croup angles – I do believe I said so categorically! A ‘good’ croup runs smoothly from/into the backline but, as you said yourself, backs and the dog are not all identical. The reason there’s a range of 20 to 32 degrees or so – rather than some silly arbitrary figure of 23 degrees or whatever – is intended to make allowance for differences in construction – the longer the back, the more the lower end of range becomes appropriate and vice versa. I hope this makes things a little bit clearer. Regards.

not really sugarfoot, when a person needs to quote others several times, it becomes clear its not understood by the quoter. why would Sue need to agree, or any one, a discussion can be had for your learning. Regards

Hi Gem, Despite my repeated incompetent efforts, I apologise for my obvious ineptness and your inability to understand – but please don’t be discouraged. If you direct your questions instead to Sue or ecs I’m sure they will explain it far better than I ever could. In my own humble way and like you hopefully, I’m only here to learn from others. Cheers.

Hello German Shepherd Dog Enthusiasts. Agiain a very interesting thread. Please permit me to make a few comments or better, give my opinion. Once again, my opinion and about $1.60 will buy you a cup of coffee in most places. Sugarfoot, your statement "...I can't see how dog would produce more drive with shorter croup." My opinion is that this statement is right on. I don't know about producing the "flying trot" though. The proper drive should take the rear leg under the dog where it makes contact with the ground when the drive disipates. The "flying trot" needs speed to manifest itself. I've never seen SueB's dog in person, but I would suspect that the picture of her in the flying trot was taken when she was at great speed. SueB could address this for us. SueB, you make the statement "Some think too much emphesis is put on movement. I would disagree...". I agree with this statement. I dare say few, if any of us, would be interested in just placing our GSD on a bench and be satisified in the sport. A shepherd can be disqualified without ever moving due to a number of faults. But even so, our standing evaluation is, in and of itself, evaluated by the moving aspect of the judging process. Few of us are priviledged to the standing evaluation, but we can hardly wait for the evaluation of movement to begin. The characteristics we cannot observe standing can then begin being evaluated. Gem, I take exception that there are "...judges who want the flatter croup with the movement that comes with it." You state "...it's unlikely a steeper croup will cause "kick-up". Most of us when we go to a show, usually watch the front runners and pay little attention to the stragglers. May I suggest giving these admittedly poorer specimens some attention and observe why these dogs are positioned where they are. As far as this point, try to find a steep crouped dog and observe its movement. Then maybe you'll say, "Well I'll be darned! ! There's that dog ecs was telling me about." One last thing. Meet me at Starbucks and I'll buy you a cup of coffee. I have one of their discount cards, and we can get it for less than $1.60. ecs

Hi Ecs, Good to have you here. I do feel that $ 1.60 and a cuppa is selling your opinion stupendously cheap! Regards.

Hi again ecs, I was fortunate to spot photograph of SueB’s Nacale in a text some time ago – and mesmerised by beautifully maintained top and under lines. Movement as related to function must be what Shep (or any other animal?) is all about – the rest mere means to that end? I surmised earlier that mentioned ‘flying trot’ is encouraged by a flatter croup via fact that drive produced is thrust into back at a lower angle – just as a steep one in a draft horse must produce opposite effect and help anchor the back legs (and I know nothing about horses!). The less effective drive generated here must also reduce overall trot endurance