Structure & Movement - Page 3

pzdc, thats the way I look at these shepherds if they move right, they must be built right. a lot of the old timers would stand around the show ring looking at the movement, if we ask questions, they would say watch the movement, its the best way to learn. like Sue says, its not easy to explain. I think they had the same problem.

Hi Gem, Nice to see you return, Good Tip. Not as clever as you, didn't have facility to copy Sieger video hence I continued to wear out original tapes :-(( Have you checked out thread on Construction and Critiques yet? Ecs gives very good explanation there of a movement he terms as 'kick up'. Never heard term before but great description of what is happening and why, which makes the term very useful as I think that it can describe many other faults the dog may have without having mentioned them individually. Before leaving I must also say, I too have heard many say "There isnt much wrong with a dog that can move like that". Of course we know that not to be absolutely correct, but a well constructed animal which is incapable of good movement or of holding itself together in movement, dissapoints more than the one who moves better than his construction suggests he would. What say you? Regards Sue B

Hi Gem, Nice to see you back. I’m at a loss with draft horses and no idea where term ‘roach’ originated. But, apart from reducing hindquarter arc of movement, do know that in Shep a steep croup means that drive is partly directed up instead of forwards (maybe this is a good feature in draft animal). And, a back that bounces, flops or roaches too much (raised above wither) when dog is on the move becomes less efficient and again part of drive is lost. I don’t know if any of this helps! Hi Sue, I think that if dog is balanced in overall construction – good bone length ratios fore and rear etc and generally harmonious – it should automatically have innate ability to move well. The alternative seems like contradiction – on the other hand, nature seems to have various ways of compensating for particular faults.Cheers.

Good grief -- I haven't read all of this but I am truly amazed !! This is more than the hard drive of my mind can process !! So far, I'm with Sugarfoot, Sue B, and some others - not sure where Lenny is going, but value all input -- I learnd EQUAL length of all of these bones we're disucssing. BALANCE is the key that produces the best movement in my book- because I'm not always looking for the EXTREME front reach, and the wobbling cow-hocked rear trying to keep up - We need the same front and rear -- Good croups are easy to see in many (German) V and VA dogs - often times harder to spot in, let's say, a KNPV wonder with the best bite in the world -- (I'm not trashing anybody's bloodines - I bred to a KNPV dog and had some of the most wonderful pups - (with short croups and stuck-on tails - but I just looked at them from the FRONT end !! I think the same as -- and agree with the notion that you need GOOD strong ligimentation and muscles to move properly too - (having been exposed to American Bred dogs who take every step like they're walking on cut glass ? Why is that? Their feet hurt - (they can have THIN pads too) they're hips are not well constructed ? The arthritis in their spine is kicking in at 3 years old ?? It's a strange thing indeed. But, the sheep herding dogs, that don't have the most reach in the world - do have the good feet and balance to trot all day - so that's where I, personally can see the "effortless gait". A short upper arm is easily evident to even beginners, all of this rear action, transmission, etc, is truly more complex, and I couldn't begin to analyze it -- When you see a dog moving that could walk on eggs and not break any - you know it right away -- When you see the mix-master rear -- you know it right away. My friend's east german dogs could not even be shown in an All-Breed show in this country -- yet, they technically meet the "standard" -- You can see that all the parts are in the right places -- but they are not "flashy"-- They do not look like Pakros, or Ando, or Hill. But they too are BALANCED - so their movement is as efficient as it is correct for their structure. They float -- and it's beautiful, but they do not have Croup's like GONZALEZ and KARAT'S ULK but they have an effortless ground covering gait (it's just a matter of how much ground you want to see covered in a step -- That, I believe, is NOT described in the Standard.

Hello Pineridge, great to find you here. You are so right, BALANCE is the key to HARMONY. All angles been equal and in harmony with each other. Graceful, effortless and fleeting gait. Expressive, strong, sturdy, firm, powerful, sound in mind & body. What joy to use such words in a critique. All the best Sue B

my head gets dizzy and my eyes ache trying to deciper meanings on this subjuct here. included I am passing on the best thing i have ever read on this subject on this link with excellent diagrams instead of regurgeitating various groupings of combined theories from books i like this better: http://www.inkabijou.co.uk/angul.htm

Hi Pineridge, Good solid, practical stuff you put in – like bit about walking on eggs. To be honest, except for upper and lower stifle, I’m really not that sold on this equal length bone business – balance between the bone in front and that of rear absolutely, but that’s not quite the same thing. Good hocks, pasterns and feet too. Even the East German dog might appreciate good croup? Maybe put AM Shep out to pasture? Thanks and regards.

SueB, I saw the other topic, it got to long before I noticed, I'm going to take time to read it soon. I always remember a shepherd being groomed for conformation, I thought was too long in the back and loin to compete. short upper arm also. the judge put the dog up front. later for the comments, he mentioned all the problems, then said, the quality is average today, this male has learned to compensate in movement for what he lacks in conformation, he's the best here today. I was speechless. it taught me to look at the complete dog, not parts, and the competetion. there are very few outstanding shepherds, but a lot of goods ones. sugarfoot, no interest here in roach backs, I like the appearance of the legs moving, and the top line with out a ripple.

Seen Nacale on the move Gem?

Hi Gem, I’m not sure if I understand completely but I’ll take a stab – ecs or Sue can always correct me later! A steep croup means that rear swing-back is reduced and drive is thrust partly upwards - lifting hind end and being so partly lost – instead of fully forward into the back. Too flat a croup means the reverse: now, forward swing of hind legs is less than ideal and drive is thrust forward in a direction below the back resulting in partial loss that way. So, ideal angle of croup (22 to 30 degrees?) is really a compromise between the two. With a more limited forward swing of hindquarters, I can’t see how dog would produce more drive with flatter croup. It may show more of a ‘flying trot’ but this can’t be as efficient endurance-wise for forward movement as that produced by better croup. By angulation is usually meant the whole kit and caboodle to do with bones: angles, lengths, and ratios. Everybody speaks about fabulous balance! All it really amounts to is that bone length ratios of the front should match that of hind end – and not just for dogs. Proper angulation as defined must automatically produce correct stride – one follows the other. Good hocks, pasterns, feet, length, coupling etc are also vital, just as proper ligaments, muscling and condition. See what I mean, it’s difficult to get full benefit of these other elements unless there’s good balanced bone structure in place to start of with. Regards.