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by LadyFrost on 22 February 2012 - 17:02
With this great weather i decided to try tracking with my ball crazy girly.....within a week i had tried pretty much what i can think of...she is just not food driven/interested, this past Saturday i finally gave up...and just basicly threw ball into the woods and let her go and find it....
I know this will sound sooooo stupid..but I can't seem to get her to follow food (this is my frustration talking now, because i am stuborn...)...I tried 2 days of no food and still I get nothing....someone was bouncing a basketball down the street and she was all ears....
if I rub a tennis ball on the grass she will follow it for just a bit but in a very wide semi circles as if to catch air scent and not ground scent, and she would look for it using her eyes....food always worked for me w/ other dogs but this is new and i am not sure how to do it w/o food.......she eats everyday as if she is doing me a favor by eating...i can have bacon, beef on the counter, i have had leftovers food on plates on a coffee table (below her nose level) and she would not touch it... (and I am NOT complaining!)
I been told to give up "tracking" with her and just do what she is good at, air scent searches but i have no idea what it is aside from obvious "find object by smelling air", what are the basics of it, proper way, or even how to improve it, except that i follow her while she does huge semi circles and eventually finds the ball....
few YouTube posts on air scent are just that....dog finds what she/he looks for and retrieves... am I making this more complicated than it really is?
I know this will sound sooooo stupid..but I can't seem to get her to follow food (this is my frustration talking now, because i am stuborn...)...I tried 2 days of no food and still I get nothing....someone was bouncing a basketball down the street and she was all ears....
if I rub a tennis ball on the grass she will follow it for just a bit but in a very wide semi circles as if to catch air scent and not ground scent, and she would look for it using her eyes....food always worked for me w/ other dogs but this is new and i am not sure how to do it w/o food.......she eats everyday as if she is doing me a favor by eating...i can have bacon, beef on the counter, i have had leftovers food on plates on a coffee table (below her nose level) and she would not touch it... (and I am NOT complaining!)
I been told to give up "tracking" with her and just do what she is good at, air scent searches but i have no idea what it is aside from obvious "find object by smelling air", what are the basics of it, proper way, or even how to improve it, except that i follow her while she does huge semi circles and eventually finds the ball....
few YouTube posts on air scent are just that....dog finds what she/he looks for and retrieves... am I making this more complicated than it really is?
by Sunsilver on 22 February 2012 - 18:02
LF, my first GSD would search for me with her eyes if I hid. If she couldn't find me that way, she'd just panic and run home! Some dogs just don't have what it takes!
My next GSD (one in my sig) was ALL ABOUT THE NOSE! Telling her 'no sniff' was like telling her not to breathe! We never did succeed in breaking her of greeting guests with a crotch sniff...
And if you took her into a strange house or hotel room, she wouldn't settle until she'd sniffed every square inch of the place! It would often take 20 or 30 minutes or more for her to settle.
Needless to say, she was a marvellous tracker.
My current male GSD is different again. He's okay at tracking, but if you take him into a strange room, he'll give a few sniffs, then settle on his bed, but the EARS will be constantly going, filtering the sounds from outside. That's why he was a perfect match for me as my hearing ear service dog.
Tracking can be taught, though. Before you give up, I'd withold a meal and make sure she is REALLY hungry. Most Sch. style trackers start with a scent pad loaded with food. You trample down a 3 ft. square area with your feet, while dropping bits of really yummy, high-value treats all over it. The dog soon learns the goodies are in the area where the scent is.
After having the dog work a scent pad a few times, then you try laying a very short beginner's track with food in every foot-step. Have the dog go slowly, and point out each piece of food, then praise them for finding it. I'd also have a reward article at the end of the track, along with some food (in her case, sounds like the tennis ball would be the best reward!)
Another thing to try is for YOU to hide. I took 2 beginner tracking seminars with an R.C.M.P. canine officer, and we started the puppies out by the owner running off and hiding a short distance away, while the pup watched. Since the owner is the most important person in the world to the dog, this was a great way of motivating a dog that might not find food a good enough motivator. The Mounties DO NOT use food when they teach tracking, and prefer a favourite toy/ball as a reward for the dog 'getting its man' (and of course, the reward of finding the person at the end of the track.) I believe SAR rescuers start their dogs off the same way.
If this doesn't work, you may just have to enjoy her for what she's good at.
My next GSD (one in my sig) was ALL ABOUT THE NOSE! Telling her 'no sniff' was like telling her not to breathe! We never did succeed in breaking her of greeting guests with a crotch sniff...
And if you took her into a strange house or hotel room, she wouldn't settle until she'd sniffed every square inch of the place! It would often take 20 or 30 minutes or more for her to settle.Needless to say, she was a marvellous tracker.
My current male GSD is different again. He's okay at tracking, but if you take him into a strange room, he'll give a few sniffs, then settle on his bed, but the EARS will be constantly going, filtering the sounds from outside. That's why he was a perfect match for me as my hearing ear service dog.
Tracking can be taught, though. Before you give up, I'd withold a meal and make sure she is REALLY hungry. Most Sch. style trackers start with a scent pad loaded with food. You trample down a 3 ft. square area with your feet, while dropping bits of really yummy, high-value treats all over it. The dog soon learns the goodies are in the area where the scent is.
After having the dog work a scent pad a few times, then you try laying a very short beginner's track with food in every foot-step. Have the dog go slowly, and point out each piece of food, then praise them for finding it. I'd also have a reward article at the end of the track, along with some food (in her case, sounds like the tennis ball would be the best reward!)
Another thing to try is for YOU to hide. I took 2 beginner tracking seminars with an R.C.M.P. canine officer, and we started the puppies out by the owner running off and hiding a short distance away, while the pup watched. Since the owner is the most important person in the world to the dog, this was a great way of motivating a dog that might not find food a good enough motivator. The Mounties DO NOT use food when they teach tracking, and prefer a favourite toy/ball as a reward for the dog 'getting its man' (and of course, the reward of finding the person at the end of the track.) I believe SAR rescuers start their dogs off the same way.
If this doesn't work, you may just have to enjoy her for what she's good at.
by LadyFrost on 23 February 2012 - 13:02
Sunsilver..thanks...
i have tried the scent/food pad...she was not interested at all, i tell her "smell, food" she picks a piece chews a few times half the time drops it while looking at me like: "ok, there, i ate it, now throw the ball"... if I do not have the ball, she is not paying much attention to me either usually scouting the area for a ball.........i wish they had "new tennis ball" scent drips/sprays like they have "new car" smells..LOOOL...I bet that would have worked for her...all i would have to do is spray a little on the track and she would follow it till she reaches the tennis ball...LOL..
hmm that gives me an idea...let 2 tennis balls sit in a water overnight and than use that to spray the track and see if she will follow it...if it does not rain this weekend i will be the crazy lady with a spray bottle with 2 tennis balls in it out in the field...LOL
i have tried the scent/food pad...she was not interested at all, i tell her "smell, food" she picks a piece chews a few times half the time drops it while looking at me like: "ok, there, i ate it, now throw the ball"... if I do not have the ball, she is not paying much attention to me either usually scouting the area for a ball.........i wish they had "new tennis ball" scent drips/sprays like they have "new car" smells..LOOOL...I bet that would have worked for her...all i would have to do is spray a little on the track and she would follow it till she reaches the tennis ball...LOL..
hmm that gives me an idea...let 2 tennis balls sit in a water overnight and than use that to spray the track and see if she will follow it...if it does not rain this weekend i will be the crazy lady with a spray bottle with 2 tennis balls in it out in the field...LOL
by Sunsilver on 23 February 2012 - 16:02
LF, what if you try the RCMP method? The owner would run away while the dog watched, acting silly, and tempting the dog with its favourite toy (and we both know what THAT will be...lol!). The problem with this method is you need a second person to handle the dog.
At first, the dog is allowed to track you right away. Then, you let an increasing length of time go by before you start them (while you still lurk in the shrubbery, of course.)
At first, the dog is allowed to track you right away. Then, you let an increasing length of time go by before you start them (while you still lurk in the shrubbery, of course.)
by LadyFrost on 23 February 2012 - 17:02
LOL.....so now i just upgraded to the "Creepy Lady of the Bushes"..LOL...
I usually go out to the field (maybe 5 acres wide with woods at the back) between Fire Department and a Church with a huge neighborhood across the street....I can just see how this will be unraveling...LOL...
but what the heck....i may as well try it...and see what happens...
I usually go out to the field (maybe 5 acres wide with woods at the back) between Fire Department and a Church with a huge neighborhood across the street....I can just see how this will be unraveling...LOL...
but what the heck....i may as well try it...and see what happens...
by Slamdunc on 23 February 2012 - 23:02
LF,
You are really over complicating this. Sunsilver gave you some good ideas. SAR start trailing dogs in a similar fashion to the way Sunsilver mentioned. This is not all that complicated, as a matter of fact it is very easy. If your dog is as ball crazy as you say, have a second person hold your dog. You tease the dog with it's favorite toy, really animated and then run away. Have your friend take the dog behind your car, out of sight and wait a few minutes. You run off out of sight, around a building or into the woods. A short distance initially. If you trust your dog and it's safe; have your friend let go of the dog and let your dog find you. The only hard part is finding a hiding spot where the dog can not see you. You do not want the dog searching with it's eyes, which it will do in the beginning. When it realizes it can't find you by sight it will begin to use it's nose. We hide in trees, dumpsters for recycling (not trash), behind bushes etc. I generally hide in places the dog can not get to me, because our dogs bite the person they find. Your idea of training the dog to track tennis balls is a little goofy.
When the dog finds you reward with praise, lots of praise and throw the ball. Do it again increasing the distance and time. Once your dog is finding you reliably, switch places with your friend. You hold the dog and they run away. When you start this go back to short distances. If your dog has drive she will pick this up pretty quickly. It is one of the techniques that we use for training the Police dogs to hard surface trail. We make it more complicated by using scent articles, take wind direction into account and lay aged, long tracks. If you feel the need to complicate this, after the track layer starts, I will wipe the door handle of his car with a sterile cotton gauze pad and give that to my dog as the scent article. My dog will bypass other people working that specific odor till he finds the right person.
You are really over complicating this. Sunsilver gave you some good ideas. SAR start trailing dogs in a similar fashion to the way Sunsilver mentioned. This is not all that complicated, as a matter of fact it is very easy. If your dog is as ball crazy as you say, have a second person hold your dog. You tease the dog with it's favorite toy, really animated and then run away. Have your friend take the dog behind your car, out of sight and wait a few minutes. You run off out of sight, around a building or into the woods. A short distance initially. If you trust your dog and it's safe; have your friend let go of the dog and let your dog find you. The only hard part is finding a hiding spot where the dog can not see you. You do not want the dog searching with it's eyes, which it will do in the beginning. When it realizes it can't find you by sight it will begin to use it's nose. We hide in trees, dumpsters for recycling (not trash), behind bushes etc. I generally hide in places the dog can not get to me, because our dogs bite the person they find. Your idea of training the dog to track tennis balls is a little goofy.
When the dog finds you reward with praise, lots of praise and throw the ball. Do it again increasing the distance and time. Once your dog is finding you reliably, switch places with your friend. You hold the dog and they run away. When you start this go back to short distances. If your dog has drive she will pick this up pretty quickly. It is one of the techniques that we use for training the Police dogs to hard surface trail. We make it more complicated by using scent articles, take wind direction into account and lay aged, long tracks. If you feel the need to complicate this, after the track layer starts, I will wipe the door handle of his car with a sterile cotton gauze pad and give that to my dog as the scent article. My dog will bypass other people working that specific odor till he finds the right person.
by LadyFrost on 24 February 2012 - 13:02
Slamdunc, thanks.. :)
I guess i was just stuck on "tracking" for some reason....she did not "pass" as a SAR dog last summer because she would snap at people she did not know, she needed to be socialized which is a whole different topic....so instead of doing search i figured i do track...no people needed, keeps her active and its an activity she technically should have enjoyed...I think she has a great talent to be a SAR dog, it's the lack of trust to people in general....she is not a happy go lucky dog, and no one is her friend...even me she treats with assertiveness....i cant pin point it really...it's in her eyes, it's in the way she moves....Anyways back to the topic...I will try "out of sight" search and see how she does it....she does great in the back yard with overturned empty boxes and containers while sniffing for her ball, so i think adding some distance and adding a human should make this interesting...
thank you for suggestion....
I guess i was just stuck on "tracking" for some reason....she did not "pass" as a SAR dog last summer because she would snap at people she did not know, she needed to be socialized which is a whole different topic....so instead of doing search i figured i do track...no people needed, keeps her active and its an activity she technically should have enjoyed...I think she has a great talent to be a SAR dog, it's the lack of trust to people in general....she is not a happy go lucky dog, and no one is her friend...even me she treats with assertiveness....i cant pin point it really...it's in her eyes, it's in the way she moves....Anyways back to the topic...I will try "out of sight" search and see how she does it....she does great in the back yard with overturned empty boxes and containers while sniffing for her ball, so i think adding some distance and adding a human should make this interesting...
thank you for suggestion....
by beetree on 24 February 2012 - 19:02
Use your daughter to hide...my dog will find each kid, by name, LOL Makes playing manhunt a bit rough, though, once the other team figures that out!
by clc29 on 26 February 2012 - 01:02
Hi Lady Frost,
First......are you trying to make her a sport "tracking" dog or use her in practical application SAR "trailing"?
Second......it sounds like she is not food motivated, but toy motivated. This is not a bad thing for the practical application trailing dog.
If you are trying to make her a SAR trailing dog.....she will need to want to find the subject (who has her most favorite reward). We start socializing our SAR dogs by having every member on the team play with them or give them treats (what ever motivates them). A SAR dog does not have to be overly social, but must not show aggression to strangers. They must also WANT to find the stranger. So socialize...socialize :)
Our trailing dogs start trailing training similar to sport training. Except we drop an article of clothing with the treat. We call this dirty laundry training....LOL. At the end of the very short track, the subject is hiding with the dogs favorite reward. It is important to make sure your subjects are very good cheer leaders and make a big production when your dogs finds them. As the tracks get longer the clothing lessens and the treats come father apart.
Sometimes we do a runaway at the end of a track to help with motivation.
I'm sorry...I can't help you if you are thinking about sport tracking. But....maybe you could soak her favorite toy in water then use that water in a water bottle to spray each foot print. At the end of the track you could leave that toy for her as a reward?
Good Luck with your girl. Remember....what ever your goal, it should always be fun for both of you.
Cheri & Cisco
First......are you trying to make her a sport "tracking" dog or use her in practical application SAR "trailing"?
Second......it sounds like she is not food motivated, but toy motivated. This is not a bad thing for the practical application trailing dog.
If you are trying to make her a SAR trailing dog.....she will need to want to find the subject (who has her most favorite reward). We start socializing our SAR dogs by having every member on the team play with them or give them treats (what ever motivates them). A SAR dog does not have to be overly social, but must not show aggression to strangers. They must also WANT to find the stranger. So socialize...socialize :)
Our trailing dogs start trailing training similar to sport training. Except we drop an article of clothing with the treat. We call this dirty laundry training....LOL. At the end of the very short track, the subject is hiding with the dogs favorite reward. It is important to make sure your subjects are very good cheer leaders and make a big production when your dogs finds them. As the tracks get longer the clothing lessens and the treats come father apart.
Sometimes we do a runaway at the end of a track to help with motivation.
I'm sorry...I can't help you if you are thinking about sport tracking. But....maybe you could soak her favorite toy in water then use that water in a water bottle to spray each foot print. At the end of the track you could leave that toy for her as a reward?
Good Luck with your girl. Remember....what ever your goal, it should always be fun for both of you.
Cheri & Cisco
by Zep on 26 February 2012 - 10:02
But....maybe you could soak her favorite toy in water then use that water in a water bottle to spray each foot print. At the end of the track you could leave that toy for her as a reward?
That is a fantastic idea! I'm going to try this only with chicken water or something (my pup is not very toy/tug driven) with a big ole' hunk at chicken at the end of the track.
Zep--
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