Linebreeding Question for Experts - Page 1

Hello, I seek the collective wisdom of some of you who have great breeding experience. I understand what linebreeding is, and I have a more than solid understanding of molecular genetics and genetics as they apply to inheritance. What I am curious about is what constitutes too much linebreeding? Is it only that we are so concerned about close line breeding, say 3-3 or do we also worry with multiple dogs in a given pedigree who are showing up in a pedigree generations back? I know the potentials but am asking this question on a practical basis. Those of you who have solid experience and understanding, I would be interested in hearing your opinion.

Good question, I have wondered that too. I came across a bitch in the database who was linebred to 15 dogs!! in five generations. I thought to myself, that can't be good.

Your query is an interesting one, hody, but I doubt if there is a clear answer! (or that molecular genetics enter into it!) Much here must be subject to degree of homozygosity, or prepotency, and genotype of animals involved (and preponderance, or lack thereof, of hidden faults); and as to how genetic make-up of one blends/combines with that of another --- factors largely unknown and beyond Breeder's control. Obviously, the farther removed, the less its impact on outcome, and I believe it's generally accepted that influence of any animal beyond the 5th generation may safely be ignored. May I suggest you check Kennyr's informed comments on In Breeding Puppies on Page 5 of Messageboard, and those of Charlie Ivory as well. Perhaps they care to make further contribution here?

comments above are interesting - to say the least -- first - lets put this issue directly in the hands of breeders because they have total control of whom they breed to whom. so they better have control -- and knowledge of what the lines are bringing forward. And...depending on whom you talk to - some people think that beyond the 3rd generation is not enough of a big deal (or concentration of genes) to matter -- I think it all matters. In American bred lines - it's a cause for concern if you see Sundance Kid on every other line of the 4th AND 5th generations. And to me, linebreeding (as shown in this database) if it brings up 10 dogs that's not a problem, unless they, in turn, are all children and grandchildren of the same 4 dogs. That's why you have to go back far enough --- unless you have memorized all of Uran's son's and all of Jello Michelstadter Rathaus, and know where all the Jeck kids are, etc., etc. I have bred 14 litters in the past 20 years and have always outcrossed -- with only 1 BIG exception where I bred a half brother/sister -- They had the same mother - but their sires were COMPLETELY DIFFERENT -- and the total pedigree was EAST GERMAN/ WEST GERMAN / AND BELGAIN DOGS (without common W. German ancestors) I got everything I wanted - beautiful pups, good temperatment, good hips, longevity, etc. etc. Pedigree is important - genes are important -- but it took me a long time to learn not to fault the dog based on the piece of paper that describes him !!! I have seen pedigrees that made me drool - only to see something that looked like it came out of a GOAT - and nondescript pedigrees that were attached to (surprisingly) beautiful animals (What they can or cannot produce is for the future generations to see)-- At the point this breed is today: I stand by one of our main breeding Philosophies -- GENETIC DIVERSITY IS CRITICAL TO THE SURVIVAL OF THE SPECIES !! (ANY SPECIES !!) A great BOZO son, bred to a fabulous BOZO daughter, does not give you BOZO to the second power. Hell, repeating Bozo's breeding may not even net you another BOZO. Okay, I'm done !!

In the laboratories inbreeding is widely used for homogenous traits in experiments, brother/sister breeding done several times basically so that they will be homogenous in traits and suitable for experiments. Most breeders understand pitfalls related with line breeding and they usually refrain even from doing 3-3 although it is quite tempting to see the results. I recently wanted to mate my bitch and I was advised by a true expert to avoid 3-3 if another good line is available. So what should be avoided is close line breeding, and having the same dogs in the ancestry way back won't make much difference.

Cheers Pineridge, I agree mostly with your comments but, you then also say that Breeders 'better have control - and knowledge of what the lines are bringing forward'. They may have 'control'over what animals to mate, but how can they possibly know as to what's hidden within genetic make-up of any particular individual --- more so when using an external stud --- and with Breeders quietly disposing of any defective offspring? (In fact, in my experience, there's far greater inclination toward using latest stud import or whatever winning sire happens to be latest 'flavour of the month', than heeding other consideration). And, how can Breeder possibly be sure beforehand as to if genetic mix of one particular animal will blend harmoniously with that of another? Isn't that why line-breeding is practised in first place: to reduce element of uncertainty as to outcome? You affirm yourself that combining two great animals does not necessarily so produce a third! Having sound knowledge of animals in question may well aid to reduce such uncertainty, but can hardly eliminate it! I'd still like to hear Kennyr again on this topic.

Patrishap - just to not be ignoring you - everything you state is well said -- and agreed with. To illustrate some of my comment - I "new" breeder chose a FAMOUS stud of the hour - because he was taken with the show-ring -- he asked very few (or the wrong) people as to their opinion of this pairing -- he had 6 (apparently lovely) pups -- On examination at 5 weeks a competent veternarian told him not to sell 3 of the pups - but to give them away instead, as they may not live long due to heart defects !! The novice breeer was devistated -- after weeks of discussions at the "club" I had to say it -- The sire he chose and the grandsire were very well known for having and producing heart problems -- He did not do his homework and he did not align himself with trusted (exsperienced) breeders who could teach him the ropes - who's known for bloating, who's got lots of dead kids at 3 years old, who's got tons of offspring with bad hips no matter who they're bred to -- this is the kind of stuff you gotta dig for if your're going to have a chance -- You don't have to get into bed with the stud dog owner -- you have only to like the dog not the owner -- but you have to be dealing with HONEST people, either by your own experience or reputation if you hope to improve on anything in a breed riddled with problems. It ain't easy !!! for sure. All of this is more reasons why people stay within the one/two bloodlines they know "click" and think they're safe -- all the while they are brewing additional troubles down the road.

patrishap- excellent comments...