And Canto Wienerau came with his own set of problems to spread around, namely von willebrands and/or hemophilia a I believe and poor temperament.... let us not forget Uran Wildstiegerland.... known to carry pituitary dwarfism.....
I had some similar lines American and old German, Bodo Lierberg etc... but we did come across some pretty scary vWd values..
There is always something we must worry about...
Makosh, just to differ with your remark that one of the parents has to be sable in order for the litter to be sable. . . My friend bred years ago a black & tan German/American lined bitch with her pure white male and expected what she got. An entire litter of sable pups. Now, what is interesting here is that the whites can be AKC registered too. And as a result the puppies could be shown in the show ring. Whatcha think of that? It was a total outcross. Almost like breeding mongrels. Dogs with differing temperaments, sizes. But about 3/4 of the litter were simply magnificant and I do not mean in AKC terms. Really beautiful dogs within the standard set out by the SV! Yes, the SV. I don't know if any of these dogs wound up being bred to or what that would have resulted in. But the inheritance of coat color is still a mystery to me.
Have never seen that happen before... maybe some weird mutation but the general rule is you have to have at least one sable parent to get sable pups....
There are sables who appear to have a more saddle pattern and show more dark (black)on that saddle... the genetics list might be a good place to ask that if you dare... I'm going to pose this to my friend who is a geneticist.... very interesting
Yes, You can get Sable from White bred to Black and tan. The reasons are explained in the Book by Malcolm B Willis PH. D. "The german Shepherd Dog a Genetic History"
Basically, a white dog is a dog with two copies of a recesive gene that stops the expression of the dog's true coat color. The white genes are on a different location than those for Sable, bicolor, B/T, Black.
If Sables resulted from a breeding to B/T to whit,
then the White is genetically a Sable with its color masked by the white gene.
The pup recieves one Dominant Gene for "Express Coat Color" from the B/T parent. So, it had coat color, and the resesive gene for "White" is not Expressed, even though it is carried. Then, The pup got one dominant gene foe "SABLE" from the White parent, and a resessive gene for B/T, bicolor or black from the Father. Again, Sable is dominant, so that is the phenotype.
Pictures of Silver/Blue puppies and a LIver adult are on page "Plate I and Plate II or the book I mentioned above.
Blue and Liver are dilutes, and Exist in the Following breed or strains as NON Faults.
Chesapeake Bay Retriever. (Liver in every animal I have seen)
Weimaraner (Blue dilute or double dilute I think)
Chacolate Labrador (LIVER), note the brown nose and pads
Red Doberman (Liver)note the brown nose and
Britany Spaniel(Liver)note the brown nose and
Chocolate Cocker Spaniel(Liver)note the brown nose and
American Water Spaniel (Liver)
Red Husky (Liver)
Red Australian Kelpie.(Liver)
Mastin Napolitano (Blue in most cases)
to name a few...
Dilute genes exists in horses too. SeeSmokey Black, Perlino, Cremello, palomino and Buckskin.
I do not own, breed or promote off colors or dilutes, but enjoy scientific information on them. While not being done in the GSD yet to my knowl;egde, horse breeders can DNA test their animals too see what they carry genetcally before any breeding takes place.
Jo-Ann, you sure know too much for this board. . . I am so grateful for the confirmtion that this was not a mutation. Certainly could not have been in an entire litter. And my friend, is a wicked smart person who would not know what she was doing. So, Jo-Ann when are you giving your next seminar and when?
Sunny (oh, I have the black and tans but also have a great appreciation for the whites). If you could still get your hands on a good one!
Yes, JoAnn is right.... Here is the answer from my genetics friend when I asked how this could happen..
"Happens all the time. The white dog is really a sable "under" the white. White is epistatic to all colors (meaning it covers up the other color traits). Dogs patterns are determined at the A locus (agouti) with Sable > black/tan > black. White is determined at a difference locus (probably the C locus, but that is just theory). All white dogs are still some pattern at their A locus, that pattern is just covered up by the white.
So this sable pup has a sable parent - you just cannot see the sable pattern as it is covered by the white coat."
So, I learned something today, that makes it a good day!
Sunshine, I was talking about German Shepherds, and not about some white crosses. I think FerrumGSDs explained clearly how those sables have happened from genetic point of view. To make myself clearer: To be sable, a puppy MUST have at least one of the parents sable
when standard pigmented dogs are used.
JoAnn thanks so much. DKiah, I learned something too. Makosh, sorry, you were right.
"Now, what is interesting here is that the whites can be AKC registered too. And as a result the puppies could be shown in the show ring. Whatcha think of that?"
sunshine, white dogs CANNOT be shown in the AKC conformation (show) ring. they are disqualified even though they are registered. a white CAN be shown in obedience, tracking, agility...
Sorry Kioanes for the misunderstanding. But I was referring to the sable puppies that resulted from the breeding white X black & tan that could be shown. Since both parents were AKC registered, so were the pups. The pups were sable and not white.
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