Standard vs ideal stud arrangements - Page 1

I would like to know the standard stud arrangements vs ideal regardless of fees. I believe stud fees in the US of A is between $800 to $1200 for top dogs. Some drive their dogs for hundreds of miles, but may be impractical if the ideal stud for a brood bitch is thousands of miles away. Usually we ship them. 1. What is the charge for picking up. 2. Would board and lodging be charged separately, if yes how much? 3. How long do stud owners like to keep a female? 4. How many ties are done. 5. How many days after a successful tie before a female is shipped? 6. How many tries are allowed if the first mating does not succeed? 7. Do stud owners allow collaboration, i.e. in whelping the pups or placing? 8. Do stud owners, advise against a breeding if he thinks, the combination is bad? Which in turn affect the studs reputation? Thanks, Roger

Hi Roger; I am not too sure what other stud dog owners charge for these "extra's", however this is the way we do our stud service: 1:As long as the female is shipped in to the nearest airport, we only charge a $50.00 pick/delivery fee. If we have to drive outside of 3 hours to pick up or drop off it would be more, how much, I don't know,. 2:Board for any female being bred to our male is never charged, *unless* the female is left in our care for over 10 days total,this allows plenty of time for progesterone testing to be done prior to the breeding. After 10 days we charge $15.00 per day for board. 3:We don't like to keep the female any longer then necessary obviously, that is just less stress on the female. 4: At this time we are currently offering our male Belschik at stud via fresh or frozen semen AI, if the bitch owner decides upon fresh AI, we allow 3 fresh inseminations.(We feel it is no longer in Belschiks best interests to allow natural breedings, he generally ties for an hour, therefore fresh AI or frozen is easier on both him and the female). 5:We like to allow the female at least 1-2 days after the last breeding before shipping if she was sent to us, usually most bitch owners will transport the female to us and leave for home after the 3rd AI. 6:We reserve enough frozen semen to cover your female again in the event of a missed conception, this also covers us all in the event our male was not alive for a rebreed. If the female were to miss again, we would handle this on an individual basis, as we are constantly monitoring and collecting our males semen to ensure he is fertile, and to be able to fullfill all our commitments to bitch owners. 7:We activley promote each and every breeding to our male, we will advertise your litter on our website and screen out potential puppy buyers to pass along to the bitch owner. 8:we would definatley refuse a breeding if we did not feel the female was of breeding quality. I hope that helps a little www.kiewelworkingdogs.com

All stud arrangements are very individual and depend on the stud dog owner. Here is a summary of what I have encountered in the past or how we handle breedings: 1. What is the charge for picking up? That usually depends on the distance that is involved. If the breeder is within an hours drive from the airport then some will do a free pick up, providing they have the time. Personally, I would not expect anyone to drive for 2 or more hours one way for free. Nor would I drive such a distance without proper reimbursement for my time and expenses. In Germany there is usually a charge for pick up from and delivery back to the airport, if the distance is too large. Over there you can keep it simple and hire someone to handle this for you: PetAir and GK will do pick up and deliveries in addition to arranging air freight. Their average charge is 85 Euro cents per Kilometer one way (i.e. 300KM one way (600km total distance on one pickup/delivery) = 255 Euros). When shipping a female to Germany for breeding, keep in mind that dogs can only be shipped on weekdays. That usually does not fit in well with regular working hours. Ideally, the female's owner has already arranged this with the shipping company. Driving cost should be agreeed upon before the dog is shipped, so that there will be no arguments later. 2. Would board and lodging be charged separately, if yes how much? That depends on the breeder, if there is space available in the kennel, and how long the female is scheduled to stay. Some charge just for food. Some charge the going rate which can be as high as 30 Euros per day for a GSD size dog. Most of the breeders in our group for example charge between 5-15 Euros per day, plus cost of food if the female is at the kennel for more than 3 days. The breeder may also have additional vet charges for progesterone tests, bacterial cultures etc. to ensure better breeding success. This too will be charge to the bitches owner. 3. How long do stud owners like to keep a female? Most stud dog owners do not want the responsibility that comes with looking after a dog that is not their own. A strange dog in a kennel also tends to be disruptive. If you ask for "like", most will say that they'd "like" the female to leave as quickly as possible. Ideally the female has a progesterone test (ovulation test) done before she is shipped for breeding so that she is nearly ready to be covered as soon as she has arrived. 4. How many ties are done? Two successful ties, two days apart are the average. We alway try to provide photo documentation of the ties. Some owners of the highly frequented dogs such as the VA dogs will only allow one tie.

5. How many days after a successful tie before a female is shipped? This is where opinions differ... The female can either be sent back the day of the last mating or the day after. Since it takes several days for the eggs to be fertilized and the sperm will keep inside the female for several days, getting the female home asap makes sense so that everything will take its natural course when the female is back home at familiar surroundings. The stress of shipping may affect conception though. Most stud dog owners prefer this option - to ship the female out as soon as she has been bred. If you want to be sure, and the stud dog owner is agreeable, keeping her there or at a nearby boarding kennel until the 30th day and then have an ultrasound done is ideal. In most cases that is not possible though. The best time to ship a pregnant female is around the 40th day of pregnancy BTW. Around that time there is no more chance of reabsorption, and the chances of miscarriage or a premature birth are smaller. 6. How many tries are allowed if the first mating does not succeed? If a breeding was not successful you usually get one repeat breeding. If the male is a proven stud dog and your female does not take after 2 breedings, it is safe to assume the problem is with the female, not with the male. It is up to the stud dog owner to allow you to come with a different female for the repeat breeding. Most are agreeable if asked politely. Personally, I would not repeat a breeding to the same male if it was unsuccessful the first time, rather try again with a different female. You should agree on this before the breeding and get it in writing to avoid conflict. Or have the female bred to a different and proven male inbetween to make sure she can conceive before going back to a breeding that did not produce. In Germany, if the stud dog was sold before you could get a repeat breeding you are entitled to receive half of the stud fee back. If the breeder has another stud dog available you might have to accept a breeding there. 7. Do stud owners allow collaboration, i.e. in whelping the pups or placing? Usually the stud dog owner is not involved unless the two of you agree otherwise. Everything can be agreed upon of course and the sky is the limit. In general, the stud dog owner is not responsible for placing pups, for pups faults, etc. That is the responsibility of the breeder that whelps the litter. Some stud dog owners may be very particular where pups from their males end up and may have their own terms to allow a breeding. Some stud dog owners will co-breed a litter with the female's owner. Again, the terms need to be worked out individually. For any terms attached to a breeding I strongly suggest to put it in writing and make sure there are no loose ends or vague terms. 8. Do stud owners, advise against a breeding if he thinks, the combination is bad? Which in turn affect the studs reputation? A stud dog owner always has the right to refuse a female and many reputable breeders will do if they find a female ill suited for a breeding. The males in Germany also have limited number of breedings per year. 60 within Germany, 30 for foreign owned females. The better the male, the better your female should be so that you get a breeding with a top male such as a VA or BSP male. If your female is not up to par you may never hear back from the stud dog owner. Some stud dog owners get more involved than others. Some just care for raking in the stud fees and will accept just about any female...

One more thing: You should always have a thorough vet check done of your female before breeding her - to make sure she is fit to carry and raise a litter. You should always have a bacterial culture done of your female before breeding her and in the US also a brucellosis test! Brucellosis is not a problem in Germany - yet. So it is not commonly tested for. If your female is from the US, please have her checked for Brucellosis before sending her for stud service in Germany. Thanks.

I sincerely thank you for your responses, DH and VHK. That really helps. It also confirms how great the stud owner of Triumph's Gucci is. i.e Mrs. Lida Fleury. In fairness to her, knowing what I know as a standard and ideal arrangement, I have to proclaim what she has done for me for the following: 1. What is the charge for picking up. She drove 2 hours one way to pick up and drop off = No CHARGE. 2. Would board and lodging be charged separately, if yes how much? For my last 3 attempts, on an established fertile stud, she kept my female for 2 to 3 weeks at a time. NO CHARGE. 3. How long do stud owners like to keep a female? She kept my female at her discretion. She was very protective and even kept my female in her house. 4. How many ties are done. I was given at least 2 ties. 5. How many days after a successful tie before a female is shipped? She shipped at MY convenience. NO CHARGE. 6. How many tries are allowed if the first mating does not succeed? She gave me unlimited! But of course I will not abuse her hospitality. 7. Do stud owners allow collaboration, i.e. in whelping the pups or placing? She like my female so she stated if it works, since she loved Gucci and my female so much she would whelp and just get 30%. I was insisting on 50% for her, but she felt sorry for me as I spent close to 2k in travel alone. And believe it or not she even offerred a female puppy for me if the mating does not result to a successful one! 8. Do stud owners, advise against a breeding if he thinks, the combination is bad? Which in turn affect the studs reputation? Before this breeding, a free consult with the former breeder of Sunrise kennel was initiated. Now if I need to use another stud, where can I find somebody like Mrs. Fleury. I hope she gets another great stud when Gucci ages. In my opinion, no other stud owner in North America can offer the same service I received. She will be a tough act to follow. She is not in this for the business. Amazing indeed! Roger.

Roger, Mrs. Lida Fleury is unbelievable. I can't even imagine people taking so much trouble these days and overlooking commercial interests. I am very happy for you being able to be associated with such a gem of a person.

I have met her as well, a really nice lady even before I knew all this..... just as an FYI, I don't own any top males in the Schutzhund arena but we do own the most awesome agility male - they compete mostly in AKC and USDAA - I will go out of my way to make a breeding work if that's what the bitch owner wants and I think it's good... The last person he was bred to, spent a fortune in AI's, etc and ended up with 3 pups - now attributable to her bitch - and we offered her not only a free breeding because her waiting list was so long and quite a few people were referrals from us but we offered her a place to stay as well since we were going to do a natural breeding.... He's not Gucci, by any stretch but he is sought after in his own arena.... and there are some of us out there who are trying to do the right thing for nice people.....

I have only heard only the kindest comments about Lida.

After being dupped several times I have to be cynical. Almost even gave up shepherds. After calling Lida I remained skeptical as she is too good to be true. After a year of knowing her and even not meeting her, I could not believe the goodness in her heart. Saints do exist. She is steadfast in her commitments. I have goose bumps reading nice things that people say about her. She is a silent force. A leader by example. Does this Lady ever get really mad? Roger