Sample video ffrom NASS 2005 - Page 3

I was watching both when the puppy bolted from the ring immediately upon the judge's firing the shot and I was still standing in the same spot when this puppy had her second bite at the gun sureness apple. She did not bolt form the ring that time, but she did jump upon her owner and tried to scale up her body.

Just for the record and so as I don't ever again get accused of being so quick to "denigrate" another GSD, just what exactly is the rule for the gun sureness test anyway? How many chances does EACH dog get to react in a "solid" way? Is it a rule that when a dog bolts from the ring it is allowed to return for another try? A written rule of the judge's descretion. What about the reaction I witnessed as posted above when that poor little puppy tried to jump into the arms of her handler during her second chance. That was a "solid" performance? What about another in the same class, she needed her family in the ring playing and distracting her when the shots were fired. Is this also SOP for the gun sureness test in the 12 to 18 month class? Maybe this puppy belongs to someone who is connected in the breed. Frankly, I do not know or care who she is out of, her breeder, or her owner. I never bothered to look it up in the catalog and almost 3 weeks later I still haven't done that. I don't give a damn about GSD politics or who are the big players in the breed. My concern is and always has been that I am trying to be mentored in this breed and to understand how these SV shows are conducted. I show at AKC show, not GSD's so please don't anyone get in my face for that. At least there are written rules for AKC shows. Are there such for SV shows or are the rules mades up as needed based upon personas? Then there is the bitework, seems to me that most every dog received a pronounced regardless of how well they hit the sleeve, how obedient they were when told to "out" and some even went back for some extra bites at the sleeve. Why would a dog that performed like I-Kon and Helen Gleason's bitch, I've forgotten her name, get the same rating as a dog that barely took the sleeve, refused to out til the 3rd command and then went back for more nips? Written rules or no written rules? GSD politics do not interest me period and I could care less about who is and who is not a big shot in the breed. I am not out to get or denigrate any kennel or any dog or person and I really take offense at being accused of doing so. I do not take pleasure at seeing dogs fail the bitework or in seeing puppies bolt and run from the ring. I have total empathy for their handlers when it happens and am smart enough to know it could most likely happen to many others at any given time. No wonder I hear things like - so and so won't enter his ****** son at any more big shows because he has no chance of ever going VA-1 although he's a great dog............she enters her big name dog at all the smaller shows so no one slse ever has a chance to go VA-1 with their dog. Is every body having fun?!?!

This is going to be a long message so I have to post it in small parts as the software otherwise will not accept it. I have not yet had time to look at the subject video, but wish to add to my initial comments above. I think some of you are really off-base. Anyone who knows me, knows I am a fanatic about my show-line dogs doing good work and they do. My female was certainly one of the best in the bite work at this last USA Sieger Show, not that many gave a damn. She was appropriately placed at V and was last in her class, in part because she is not the masculine female that seems to be placed at the front of the class often, and she was seriously out of coat because she had recently had pups. But I went for the experience, and to show people there are good working females from show lines. Again, few cared. But that is ok as I do not do this for anyone other than myself. It was, overall, a good experience, politics aside (and which I could care less about and which will always be a part of this sport as they are with other breeds, animals etc.) None the less, what bothers me here is that people go nuts after seeing a single video. I think all too many of you do not understand what is going on. No, I do not think every dog should be pronounced and all too often they are. This is something that needs discussion at the highest levels. But it is also that the bitework in the show is about something else, and not about trial bitework. I have yet to have someone adequately explain this, but our own USA head trial judge was the working judge at USA. And he gave the passing grades and whether pronounced or not. So perhaps we have to start having a dialogue with him, with SV judges from the Sieger Show etc. I

I am not sure all of you understand just how difficult it is to take a dog to the Sieger Shows, and how things can and do happen to make a given dogs' work look inadequate at that given moment. I am certain that there are some dogs who do poor work at a Sieger Show, and always do poor work. There are a lot of possibilities about why their work is poor I will mention below. But there are some who have a helper step on them as happened to a clients' dog last year. The dog was capable and had always done well, and suddenly, when hurt and failing to re-engage, on a strange field with strange helpers, everyone wants to jump to conclusions and label that dog as poor in bitework. I understand that and it was very unfortunate. I know the handler/owner had worked very hard with the dog and it was a huge disappointment for that to happen. I think if one is fair, one has to take into consideration all the facts concerning the dog and the situation. My dog will go anywhere at anytime and forcefully and eagerly engage any helper. But I do not know what would happen if she were really hurt. After all, I can simulate a lot of surprises, people etc., but I will not hurt a dog just to find out how it will react at a Sieger Show. Also, a blind falling down, or some other thing can and does happen. It is unfortunate because in a strange place sometimes things happen we can not predict. This is one reason why people should practice with multiple helpers in as many places and venues as possible. And having blinds purposely knocked down, throwing things around during the training, having the dog go after the helper on tables, in chairs, around buildings, cars, between people etc., will help a lot in preparing a dog for a surprise in a big show. But that is exactly the rub!

Some people simply do not understand what it takes to make a dog competent. It is NOT simply about the temperament of the dog. It is about whether one, as a handler, is competent. It is about whether one is lucky enough to have a very, very competent helper (I do). It is about experience and expectations for the dog. If one does not ask much, one does not get much. It is about whether one has the time and opportunity to go to other fields and work with other helpers. So what I am trying to say is that this is not as easy as it looks and it is too bad that it is a single, limited vision most people have to take in order to make a decision about a given dog. Even with the best of dogs, things can and do happen. It would help all of us if we were not so quick to judge, but given human nature and the nature of the sport and how shows are one shot deals, I understand that people want to and do form opinions. If I am interested in a dog, for whatever reason, I will look at all the video I can, hopefully with a variety of helpers in various places. If at all possible, I will work with the dog directly. I am looking for certain things, not necessarily whether at that given moment the bite is full, or the dog is profoundly confident. Each dog is different, whether from working or show lines. If I take the dog, I will make a mistake if I am not willing or able to take the dog as it is at that moment and work with it to make it do good and sound work. It is too bad we simply want to dismiss as many dogs as we can by assessing their bloodlines. Those who do that are bound to miss some good dogs. Kevin, I do not know you, but I did read somewhere about how you were not allowed to show a dog because your handler was in another ring that was in operation. That is truly upsetting and I am sorry that happened. Something like that should never happen, or, if it is possible, then people should be told so they know they better have two handlers. I know how hard many people work, and I know how much money people spend to attend these events. To have something go wrong, or people making quick judgements about what happened can certainly spoil the experience. Finally, I do not really know Gayle, but I commend her for taking the time above to state her position, not that she had to do so. So perhaps some of you can give her and the dog the benefit of the doubt? I hope so.

Hodie my friend. And I say my friend because this is about discussion and debate not condemnation or personal attacks. Not saying that you have done either. When you said, "But it is also that the bitework in the show is about something else, and not about trial bitework". I was shocked. You did explain yourself somewhat with the rest of what you had written. A show and a trial is about the performance on that given day. If you have a bad day for what ever reason you should be judged accordingly. If a dog does not re engage a helper for whatever reason it should be reflected accordingly. The dogs grip should always be firm and full and not released until trained to out. In a schutzhund trial there are three phases if you fail one phase you do not pass over all. Because a dog tracked well at one trial does not reflect on future trial scores. Not all dogs need to be rockets coming down the field but they should engage and not come off. If they do come off for what ever reason they should show the desire to want to re engage and do so accordingly. Bite work is a test of tempermant and nerve. If some stimuli effects a dogs grip ie. falling blind and the dog comes off the sleeve that is a nerve and issue. That type of nerve issue maybe worked out with training but maybe not. If a dog comes off because of a stick threat, that is a nerve issue not because he was hit too hard. How else can you explain it. These dogs are German Shepherds and should adhere to the standard set. Not dumbed down because of a lack of training time and space. One video clip does not give the whole picture but it does tell a story. To accept mediocre performances because the handler and or owner have politcal clout, is against the spirit of competition and disservice to the breed. There is but one German Shepherd Dog but two camps of philosophy, with one camp having its way with the established rules. Kyle

Kyle, Excellent statement. The only thing I find more disappointing than the dog’s courage test are the attempts to rationalize a dismal performance.

i wasn't there but bitework again "with most show lines is a joke!!!! "they need to be prepared" for something that they have been trained and trained and trained, to do and because it's a new field, surroundings, whatever the excuse, that's the reason they did poorly. bull sh*t. stop breeding your weak dogs to one another because of their conformation and maybe the show lines will one day move back into the right direction.with correct temperments and courage.. so sad, and pathetic

Kyle, I could not agree with you more! But, what I am saying is that there are SOMETIMES reasons for performance flaws or failures and that one should not necessarily condemn a dog for some failure on any given day. Last I looked, it was a batting average in the mid .300s that won the batting title in baseball. People, just like dogs, have bad days, get stepped on, are surprised etc. Who, for example, on this board can say they have NEVER startled to a loud noise when they might have been preoccupied. I agree 100% about the standards and I do everything I can with my own dogs to uphold those standards. But, I do get tired of people who have sometimes so little understanding of what it is about, who have not done it, making cursory judgements. I also get tired of the people who want to dumb down the standards. I get tired, for instance, that when I hold a Körung I get calls from people who own dogs asking if they can bring their own helper because they know I have a good helper who makes no excuses for a poorly trained dog. I always stick to my guns and people do not come, or, if they come and fail, often will bad mouth the helper. I have not looked at the video, but it is sad that people feel compelled to be knocking dogs, even dogs whose names and circumstances they do not know. If a dog fails, any phase, on any given day, yes, that dog should be failed, whether it is a trial, a show, a Körung or a Sieger Show. But what I was attempting to point out is that this is not simple and if it was, there would be a lot more people doing it and doing it successfully everyt time. Dogs, just like people, are not perfect. Perhaps I fail to make my point, but you and I are in complete agreement. regards, Hodie